Making Waves.......Or Not....Dilema

[SquareFrames]

Hi Folks,

This is rather difficult for me, but I got in 1 large LE print to reframe for a client. Once taken apart, I was shocked to see the way it was originally treated and mounted. The main problem was the print being stuck to the inner mount with either double sided sticky tape, or the use of an ATG gun and ATG tape had been used. No undermout had been used to attch the print correctly or to protect the print from the MDF, and by all accounts this print is somewhat a valuable collectors piece.

That in itself is not a major problem, just a headache to make right, and time consuming to get the print free from the mount, but that will happen. The problem is, both we and the client know who did the original job, and its someone I know quite well, and one of Northrn Ireland's top profile GCF's, who is continually advocating the use of Conservation framing, etc.

Now, forget about the Guild's 5 levels of framing in this case...What I have done is quietly explain to the customer what has probably happened, and that the correct materials may not have been available, or she may not have asked for the correct methods, or that she may not have been told of the correct framing methods, and the job was done as the client and the framer in question agreed.

Do I, speak to the framer in question and tell them of this? Do I also tell them that the client is willing to go to court to get compensated, for the incorrect methods being used? At present she is doing as we suggest and letting us deal with it..internally so to speak, but she did ask me to photograph the mounting methods from all angles..for use in any future preceedings.

This is not the only time that this has happened. Another client just before Xmas brought in quite a few of her LE prints for reframing, and they were all done like this, all stuck to the inner mount using ATG tape, and no matter what methods of reversal we used, nothing would bring the prints off.......So what does one do? Stay quiet and carry on with the work, or inform the original framer of the situation, a job I would hardly look forward to, as I do not want to be seen to be rocking any boats or 'making waves'

This could be construed as GCF policing, a job that personally I could not perform in this country, but even when it came to me, its still GCF policing none the less, and the Guild should be informed. Agian through not wanting to make waves, I have held back doing this, simply as it will be known it came from me. I have my own reputation as a framer to consider here, one that has taken a long time to build, and I have also to protect my reputation as a reputable framer amongst the other GCF's in the country, again this has taken me a while to build this, but I belive that I am held in some respect with other framers, as I also hold them, but I also have my client to look after............what to do, eh?

I will be interested in the replies on this.......

Steven

[Framing Norah]

Around here we have a strict policy of never, ever, bad-mouthing other framers to our customers. It is just so unprofessional.

We have all seen this type of workmanship, but encouraging legal action without being aware of all the circumstances surrounding the commissioning of the original job could leave you with egg on your face.

FN

[John]

'Guild Commended Framer Sued For Shoddy Workmanship'

Wouldn't do much for the reputation of Commended Framers in the eyes of the public.

Bit of a hot potato there Steven. Rather you than me.

Perhaps this highlights a need to set up some sort of system for policing GCF standards in order for the qualification to have real value.

[Merlin]

I have to agree with Framing Norah (where ever 'Around here' is).

You have done the right thing by the customer, in explaining the possible/probable reasons why the work was completed the way it was in the first place. You do not say when the original work was completed.

In a way you have also defended the original framer with your explanation. ie materials not being available then or the work being carried out as per the clients request.

If this does go to court then your name will certainly come up, and your 'professional opinion' will / may be asked for as you have been asked to take photographs - evidence.

A very similar circumstance happened to me some 2 and a bit years ago. I suggested to the customer that she contact the FATG to get independant advice. This she did.

As a back up, I also contacted the FATG and they were very good - for once I got my monies worth - . They contacted the original framer and it was all sorted out, to the customers satisfaction without going to court and long legal expenses. I still kept the rework job and now a very happy and contented return customer.

Commendable that it is, in defending other framers work, but the customer comes first.

As to GCF policing, in my opinion that should be the responsibility of the FATG, but unfortunately not being a professional body, we do not have periodic assessors or even 'mystery shoppers'; something that a lot of High Street retail outlets use, and to good value. If only to ensure that your 'standards and practices' are still meeting the requirements that are required for you to hold the qualification.

A call to the Guild as a 'Head up - something is inbound' would not hurt. Steven, if I were in your shoes, then yes I would inform the Guild.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

(This bit is for FN) I would like to state this here and now, I never bad mouthed the other framer, nor did I encourage the words 'legal action', its not my job to do that, nor is it in my nature. In my view bad framing practices badmouth themselves, and in todays American 'I'll Sue You' culture, those words just seem to slip off everyones tongue. Sad isnt it? But thagts the way life in the UK is today. Having said that, the consumer is more aware of what goes on around them.....moe aware of having to pay big money for a good job done.......So, the customer, being a long term clients of ours, knows how we frame, what standards we adhere and aspire to, and over the years they have got many, many items reframed. We dont even have to tell them its been done wrong now, they instinctively know.

As a member of the Guild's Framers Committee, I advocate GCF Policing, infact I would like to encourage it, but if I walked into John's place in Belfast, I think he'd catch on...dont you think? Northern Ireland may be the most inhospitable country in the UK to circumnavigate, but the fact is, most of the picture framers know me and my wife........so I am devising a plan, which I hope to have OK'd by the FC committee next Thursday while I am in London. This GCF Policing will take the form...........you thought I was going to tell you.....hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Policing does happen, but again it has to be done by dedicated FC members, taking time out of their schedules, etc. I think the Guild just act on complaints as they come in, I personally dont like that idea, I'd prefer the actual hands on approach. How do all the GCF's feel about being policed? I personally would encourage it and would'nt mind it. If I had this info soon I could take it to the meeting next week.

Talk soon,
Steven

[markw]

What or who are you going to police - the very small percentage of framers who are GCFs - I dont think so. The FATG have a small enough membership already, they are not going to attract new members by weilding a big stick in the background. If you can name any other proffesional association that effectively policies itself i will be very suprised.

In saying that i am not trying to dismiss the guilds standards, quite the reverse, we only maintain standards by good education and communication. The branch system is probably the best way of keeping framers up to speed with whats expected of them, but it seems to be very patchy.

As for work thats substandard - the customer should go back to the framer and demand an explanation for the poor quality of workmanship. The framer who opens the back only to find shoddy workmanship should also think twice before condeming - i have long term customers who demand nothing but very basic framing (still wouldnt attach artwork with ds tape).

If the customer gets an accurate and precise description of what they are paying for then subseqently dont get work to that specification, then they have every right to go to trading standards and demand action. As framers we should be very careful to be precise in our details of the work to be undertaken - if you are a GCF and you have been asked to work to a certain standard that should be indicated very clearly on the invoice and the frame back - end of story, nowhere to hide if it fails to be what it says it should be.

What realy suprises me are the jobs you get in where every element of the work is of a good standard only to find that the artwork is stuck to the back of the mount with masking tape - i had one in the other day that had a big label on the back - conservation framing - (it wasnt framed in the uk) artwork attached with masking tape on all four edges - tape had visibly bled through ruining a very nice original.

[SquareFrames]

hi,

You cant win, can you?

Damed if you do.....Damned if you dont.

Steven

[Framing Norah]

If the customer gets an accurate and precise description of what they are paying for then subseqently dont get work to that specification, then they have every right to go to trading standards and demand action. As framers we should be very careful to be precise in our details of the work to be undertaken - if you are a GCF and you have been asked to work to a certain standard that should be indicated very clearly on the invoice and the frame back - end of story, nowhere to hide if it fails to be what it says it should bel.

Yes Mark.

Exactly.

This is the crux of the matter. And very well put.

Perhaps we should all print off a copy of this paragraph and keep it before us at all times so that we can easily refer to it any time we are tempted to decry the work of others, or worse, encourage and assist customers in actions against fellow framers.

You make a good point about policing standards Mark, but as Steven says, you're between a rock and a hard place on this one. As this topic shows, the ability to pass a very basic picture-framing test does not guarantee that standards are maintained or even achieved outside of the test environment.

FN

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

Norah Wrote

Perhaps we should all print off a copy of this paragraph and keep it before us at all times so that we can easily refer to it any time we are tempted to decry the work of others, or worse, encourage and assist customers in actions against fellow framers.

Again I would like to say this, and this is the last time I will say it....I did not ina ny way encourage my client to take legal action, nor would I assit her in taking lagal action agaisnt a fellow framer, if she wants to do it herself, she can do, and to be honest is quite willing to do. I did put her off this course of action, as I have fixed the problem caused by a 'fellow framer', and not at great expense either.

This section 'Blunders, Gaffs and Faux Pas, etc. was started by another forum member, and I congratulate him for doing so, it brings to light what we framers face at least every week.......that is 'shoddy workmanship from other framers' it happens, nothing we can do about it. So in essence the section suggests, it decrys the work of other framers.

I would hate someone to take the first piece I ever done apart..goodness knows what they would find it was that long ago, but over the years I have learned to preserves and protect customers artwork, but most importantly of all, I have learned to offer this aspect of framing to my customers as a norm....and that has nothing to do with passing what FN calls a very basic picture framing exam......its common sense and a sense of duty of care towards the npeople who pay our wages.

As for policing GCF standards. I am an advocate of it, I belive it should happen and regualrly too. We all took the time and effort to study, make our 3 pieces, take and pass the exam...so why shouldn't we be policed and have our standrads fregulary policed. Anyone is welcome to come to my workshop and police me, at any time, my standards havent become complacent or dropped in any way, infact most of my work is now offered at Conservation standard, I try to steer away from Minimum and Budget work.....I have nothing to hide from being policed.

Steven

[markw]

I would leave the FATG if I thought that policing was going to be part of the GCF regime. The standards are in place - we use them or we dont, thats our choice. who would you get to be a framing police man and who would police them - to much petty bureaucracy would ensue and the trade would not benefit.
Any framer worth their salt frames to the highest possible standards using a combination of good quality materials, knowledge and creativity. get that right and charge enough money to make a good living and you will have a good business - rip people off by bad practice just hands your customers over to good framers.
I suggest that we wouldnt have examples of bad framing coming in to us unless we had convinced our customers that we know what we are doing and prove that by handing them back a good quality piece of work.

As with square frames - if anyone finds any of my early work - ive improved since then, honest!

[Framing Norah]

So, What you're saying, Steven, is that you entirely agree with Mark?

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

Of course I totally agree with Markw, I never disagred, but I personally believe that we as GCF's need policed. Obvioulsy, like Markw not all would agree, that is their perogative, but some GCF's have obviously taken the exam, are able to display a logo depicting that they are GCF's, a qualification that is now recognised world-wide and backed and organised by Fine Art Trade Guild, again an organisation whether you like to believe it or not, has a high standing in UK, Europe, NZ, etc.. (it could be better before this turns a slagging match aginst the Guild), and once that logo goes up, they think that whatever they do is correct.

What I didnt like was FN's inference of

refer to it any time we are tempted to decry the work of others, or worse, encourage and assist customers in actions against fellow framers.

Again, and dcefinately the final time, I did not encourage my client to go down the road of legal action, nor would I bad mouth any other framer, that is bad business. As I stated before, I steered my client away from that road of action and luckily was able to sort out the problem created by a GCF supposedly doing a Conservation job on an expensive collecters LE print. This was only discovered when my client asked me to change the mounts to suit her upgrded mind set and new decor, otherwise it would never have been brought to light.

Policing as such at the minute only happens when a complaint arrives at the Guild office, and the FC committee deal with it. How? By letter.

This is my view. As holders of this GCF qualification we should welcome being policed, maybe by independant people, who then in turn report their findings back to the Guild, and any problems can be dealth with.

I have just recently held a GCF Refresher Seminar in Northern Ireland, and all that attended agreed they would welcome some sort of policing, if only to keep them on their toes, as again they all agreed complacency can creep in when extremely busy, or other factors decreed. I would like to think that each individual Branch Master of the Guild would follow suit and organise their own GCF Refresher course. What made the course so sucessful was the fact that most of the GCF's that attended were not Guild members for one reason or another, and although organised by me (a Guild member), and the questions, topics covers organised by the Guild, but all were happy to be GCF's, and were happy to continue promoting themselves as GCF's, and were happy to continue supporting the Guild standards, and work / adhere to them. What was evident though was the fact that the standards need to be constantly updated as materials, etc. progressed. (This was a short precis of what happened, and was not a meeting to recruit new members, so dont ask me how many rejoined, or joined, I never even brought a memberfship application form)

I am sorry markw feels so strongly that if GCF policing were to happen he would leave the Guild, but we live in a democracy so he is entitled to his own thoughts and ideas, but as GCF's we cannot allow ourselves to become complacent at any time, you just never know when a previous job done bites you in the ass!!!!!!!!!! Some would say the Guild never do enough to give this organisation a better standing in the communtiy as a whole, GCF policing, i.e. ensuring their GCF Guild members are conforming to standards, etc. could play a small part in making that standing a little better, and more credibility in the community, and take us away from those awful garage framers that give not only framers and framing a bad name, but also make a mockery of your GCF qualification. I await to be rebutted. I am also sorry to say that GCF policing the way I would personally like it to happen, will never happen, it would never be allowed to happen. As markw says, there are no resources, who would do it, etc. Its a far too logistical problem / headache to allow it to happen.

NOTE: (I use the term garage lightly, to highlight the fly by night framers, who dont give a fig about standards or customers. I know some excellent, high profile framers that work from home based businesses, so PLEASE do not rebuke me for using this term b]

Steven

[markw]

Steven
As a GCF i obviously want to see the highest standards offered throughout the industry - but it will never happen that way. I know that most of the time I am competing on price - not quality. The quality of the work we carry out is almost entirely invisible to the customer. Where i can score on a visible basis is with customer care and good design sense, and i hope that i have a good customer base of people and businesses that value what i do - and trust the fact that i take pride in presenting a proffesional job.

I agree wholeheartedly that branch level education works - encouraging framers to take the GCF and advanced level tests - as well as refreshers and discussions on techniques. BUT - the branch system in many parts of the country is very poor, and without bashing the FATG too much, they should be looking at ways of holding meetings even if it means putting a full time member of staff in place to run committeeless areas.

I am fortunate in having a well run and very enthusiastic branch nearby (Cotswolds). I would say to any framer that wants to keep up to speed with current good practice as well as seeing different slants on how to achieve good results to join their local FATG branch - if you have one nearby.

Look! ive written something nice about the FATG - must have been the bank statement i opened that didnt have a single smudge of red ink anywhere.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

A decent bank statment, eh? If I was to ever rob a bank, I would not be interested in the moeny, the first thing I'd be stealing is the red ink!

I agree with markw, a good Guild branch network is excellent. Most of the branhes work well, and get excellent demonstrators, etc. Even if you are not a member of the Guild, keep up to date with their website, and go along to a Branch meeting in your area, you will be mae more than welcome. Better still, telephone your local Branch Master, or telephone Lucy 020 7381 6616 and offer your services for a demonstration or informative talk.

Steven