The Time Has Come!

Computerised Mount Cutters, Computers, other gadgetry.
Roboframer

The Time Has Come!

Post by Roboframer »

I've got to get a CMC ASAP - a wedding planner type person has fallen in love with us and is throwing about 20 multiple orgasm mounts a week at me - they average 30x24 - with two landscape 'headers' and 6 - 8 portrait 'tables' - seating plans - she fits them in.

6 of them took the best part of Thursday afternoon - just plotting and drawing the lines took most of that time - a CMC could cut those in - well, I don't care in what time - it could just do it, while I did other things, apart from feeding the boards in!

But a few of these mounts have been about 36x34 and that's jumbo board; jumbo board isn't a problem but it means I'd need a CMC that takes it.

With the Valiani I'd have to go for the larger machine, whilst the Wizard takes jumbo board on the basic model. That must mean it's just got a larger bed anyway, right?

My way of thinking is that the Valiani costs the same as the Wizard, but the Wizard comes with a computer and the Valiani does not, therefore the Valiani must be the better machine - and I like the sound of the capability to cut a double or triple mount in one go - well, that is you can put all the boards in together; not one at a time.

Thing is - what floorspace do you need - Wizard vv larger version of Valiani - that's a big factor. I've got all the dimensions of the Valiani, but they don't give the minimum floorspace required. The bed may be X by X feet, but when it's at an angle, the area it will need will be less.

What's that area and does the Wizard need less - it's a biggie for me.

I know even less about other makes but am open to suggestions - the Gunnar looks like a pool table and the TruCut a Meccano set.

Oh - and techie support is also a V-V-V-V biggie and I've been hearing bad things about Valiani's - but am aware of what is available from end users here.

This is bad - a website almost ready to go live and now a CMC - which will mean the first ever computer at work - can't handle all this at once!


HEEEEEEEEELP!!
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by span2iels »

John

In my mind there is no competition, without a shadow of doubt the Valiani is the best. When I purchased mine some three years ago I did a typical ex-servicemans valuation setting out my criteria and comparing machines and the Valiani came out on top. I also visited the factory, made very welcome, but what impressed me was the very high standard of engineering; further to that and as important was that everyone appeared happy to work for the company.

I am not sure of the difference in floor area between the Mat-Pro 120 and 150, as far as computers are concerned I use a stand alone Dell with a serial port connection and Windows XP. A further advantage of the Valiani is the range of heads available.

John(Merlin) may be able to help you further alternatively ring Joe at Simons or Valiani direct.

Hope this helps

MalR
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Merlin »

John
WOW. The dinosaur comes in from the Cold. An internet connection, then interaction on Skype. A web site in the build and now………. A CMC.

Joking apart, I am surprised that it has taken you so long.

I have had a Valiani CMC for some 7 years now and I am about to upgrade to my 3rd (yes third Valiani). You just cannot beat the engineering.

Like MalR, and you are probably bored of hearing now, I too visited the factory to complete the software course and become a UK demonstrator. I echo his comments on the engineering quality.

From your description of the size of mounts you will be cutting, it sounds as though the MatPro 150 is the beast for you. Yet I, through my web site do a fair amount of Wedding seating plans and only once have I been asked for a Jumbo size. 99.9% fall within the standard board size now.

Just to cover the sizes.
The MatPro 150 has a working area of 1500mm x 1000xx (60” x 40”). Overall size 1900mm x 1550mm (75” x 61”)
The MatPro 120 has a working area of 1200mm x 800mm (48” x 32”). Overall size 1550mm x 1250mm (60” x 49”).
I personally would work to the overall size when trying to fit into a workshop. The table is at an angle when fitted onto the stand, but you will need some room at the top end for the cable runs from the moving arm to the control box. That is if you use the stand. I do not as I think there is a lot of wasted space underneath and I do not have the luxury of a large workshop. I have built my machine onto a custom worktop so that it only angles at about 10 degrees and the space underneath is fitted for standard mountboard racking.

The Valiani range of CMC’s do not need a high spec PC to run stand alone. As long as you have a USB port available.

I am very surprised at your comment of hearing bad things about Valiani’s Tech support.
My experience is that it is first class. Nico or Luca (Valiani Italy) are on the end of the phone, on email and Luca is on the end of Skype. They will respond almost straight away. Bearing in mind though that they both are travelling the world in support of Valiani, so there could be a local time difference or internet connection problem that could delay that reply.

In the UK, I am one of the many contacts for support if required. As long as your CMC PC has internet connection then I can connect using Remote Access and help you along. As you know I am also available via this Forum, by email and on Skype.

Unfortunately I am at the other side of the country from you. However, you have an open invite to come down and spend as long as you want with my machine ‘hands on’. Alternatively try and find somebody local, I am sure they would be only too willing to show you the machine in use.

I am not involved in the costings or deals. However, which ever CMC you get it is a huge lump sum to pay out, so you do need to do some homework to make sure it is correct and viable to your business model.

It is a pity that the MatPro120 will not fit your needs. My machine is available at a bargain price and it will also include a PC now.

John, please feel free to contact me by landline or catch me on Skype if you have any other questions or queries.
John GCF
Roboframer

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Roboframer »

Thanks for the replies guys - here and on Skype to John C

I'd still really like to know what sort of area I need to free up though - I'll ask when I ring Simons tomorrow.
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

You don't need a Valiani 150 to cut 36" x 34" mounts provided none of the apertures are too close to the edge of the board. However you will need to cut the outside of the mount manually first and then put the cut board on the the machine bed to cut the apertures. I have cut a few oversize mounts this way.

I have a Mat Pro 120, old model without interchangable heads, so when the machine cuts both inside and outside the outside has a bevelled edge which personally I don't like if the mount is being sold as a mount only. For mounts going straight in frames it does not matter. Also doing the outside cut manually can be a lot more economical in mount board. For instance a 32 x 44 board will only give two 20 x 16 mounts if you let the machine do the outside cut as it needs a 19mm border to protect the blade from colliding with the metal clamps on the bottom and left hand sides.

Regarding back up when we bought ours the importer (Peregrine) were less than 10 miles up the road so this was a factor in our decision although we never needed them as it happened.

Joe at Simons is the most frustratingly difficult person to get in contact with on the planet. You could probably get through to HRH The Queen easier! I asked for a quote on a straight edge cutter which fits on the RH side of the bed about 18 months ago and are still waiting to hear plus Joe promised me a back up copy of the latest software on a disk which we downloaded and that must be more than 6 months ago. On the plus side we have never had the slightest problem mechanically and the only software problem was cured by updating the software.

Our machine sits in a corner against one wall and the computer is on a desk on the adjacent wall. If space saving is important then you could use a laptop sitting on a shelf. We have run ours on a Windows 98 set up but now use XP on a computer I bought for £65 from a company that recycle computers they take in from public bodies and businesses then wipe the hard disk clean and reinstall windows.

I would have no hesitation in going for another Valiani. If there is a 2nd hand one around you will save a fortune.

Good luck, you will not regret it.

John.
Roboframer

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Roboframer »

Jonny2morsos wrote: You don't need a Valiani 150 to cut 36" x 34" mounts provided none of the apertures are too close to the edge of the board. However you will need to cut the outside of the mount manually first and then put the cut board on the the machine bed to cut the apertures.
OK - the margins are 3" and I don't have a problem cutting the board to size first - so I could actually do that 36x34" job on the mat pro 120?

Great! BUT - at present - manually, but in a LOT more time - I could cut a 40x60 with one or more apertures and I have call for that sort of size for myself and for customers - mostly (and thankfully) not multiple apertures though - the 120 couldn't take that - nor could it take a 40x40 or a 38x38 (could it?)

I don't see the point in upgrading my capability regards speed and design whilst downgrading the sizes I've always been capable of. I'd have to turn work away or revert to manual - the extra cost isn't much - it's just the space I'd rather not have to make - but can do.
Jonny2morsos wrote:Joe at Simons is the most frustratingly difficult person to get in contact with on the planet. You could probably get through to HRH The Queen easier! .
Oh dear - this is the guy I'll be asking to speak to tomorrow.
Dermot

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Dermot »

Robo

The Valiani 150 will fit very very comfortably into a 7’ x 5’ footprint with the table on a flat surface if you angle the table you will be able to reduce the 5’ need a little bit.

I intend to have a custom bench 8’ x 4’ made out of ¾ ply (as soon as I move it to the new workshop) for my 150 which will take the Valiani at an angle with storage underneath for mountboard, there will be need to leave some of the underneath in the centre clear (about 2’) for access to the control box which will leave about 6’ for storage of mountboard.
Dermot

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Dermot »

BTW I have found Joe at Simons very accommodating and helpful, he certainly was as good as most or any reps I have dealt with in the past, in any walk of life not just picture framing.

And Merlin (John Cooper) when he came over to do the training was second to none.
Dermot

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Dermot »

BTW the reason I went for the Valaini 150 was that when I was framing before I tended to get quite a few jobs that needed jumbo board and the price difference between the 120 and the 150 was marginal.
Dermot

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Dermot »

BTW the reason I went for the Valaini 150 size wise was that when I was framing before I tended to get quite a few jobs that needed jumbo board and the price difference between the 120 and the 150 was marginal.
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by WelshFramer »

Well, I'm very happy with my Wizard.

It takes up 6 ft x 3ft 4 ins on the standard angled stand. There is a wall mounting option that obviously takes less space front-to-back.

One of the reasons I went for a Wizard was the charming Sam who spent so much time showing me the Wizard's features and answering my questions at a Spring Fair.

Anyway, I've not used any other CMC so I'll just summarise what I like about the Wizard (without suggesting other CMCs may not be just as good).

It has a small footprint compared to other jumbo board CMCs. I don't use many jumbo boards but have had a few framing jobs where I've needed to. I've also had a few orders for a few dozen mounts of the same size and using jumbo boards has saved money.

Wizard offer purchase, rental and lease options. I rented to start with and then purchased after about a year. A percentage of the rent paid is taken off the purchase price. I rented at first because I wasn't entirely sure the Wizard was the best machine for me and I was worried about maintenance costs.

Tech support is superb. Sam (at Framers Corner) is generally available and will talk me through most things. If she's not available then help is available on the grumble or from Wizard US. Mind you, I've only ever needed support twice.

The Wizard is easy to service as most things just bolt together. I had a problem with the belt tensioning at one time. Phoned Sam and she explained what to do - loosen a bolt a bit then just tighten it up again. All the other problems I've had so far have been very minor - such as a loose airline because I didn't plug it in properly.

Framers Corner run occasional refresher courses (free) for Wizard users and whenever a new version of the software comes out.

I found the software more intuitive than the others I looked at. That's largely subjective but it does seem very easy to use. A standard window mount, for example, just requires selecting 'new', typing the width and height and margin size and clicking 'cut'.

It doesn't affect me but for anyone looking for a visualisation and POS system, the Wizard software integrates well (they say).

Producing multiple mounts is simple (just type the number required) and nesting mounts (so that a smaller mount is cut from the dropout of a larger one) is straightforward. I've not found the nesting feature very useful myself because I'm never organised enough to need a large and a small mount from the same board at the same time.

The Wizard will cut double and triple mounts in one operation (I'm told) but I've never bothered with that because it's easier to cut them separately and less wasteful since I can use a variety of off-cuts without sizing them first.

I did originally think it would be a disadvantage only being able to make angled cuts (I have the Wizard 8000 rather than the 8500 which will make 90 degree cuts) but I've not found that any problem at all. Who cares if the outside edges of mounts are cut at and angle? Who wants to bother changing heads just to cut the outside of a mount?
Mike Cotterell
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Dermot

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Dermot »

Just a thought, if you are selling signature mounts for events like weddings, retirements, etc I think it would be advisable to cut the outside of the mount a 90 degree, you don’t want customers cutting themselves and leaving “blood signatures” all over the mount.

That said I test drove or should I say I had the manufactures or their agents test drive the CMC’s all four options at the Spring Show last February, all machines were very impressive and would offer any framer a super process improvement for mount cutting.

At the end of the day Valiani came out ahead of the others on most counts, I also had some input from some framers in the US who have been CMC users for many many years as they have upgraded machines they are switching to Valiani.

Bottom line is that any CMC will improve the process of mount cutting by an unbelievable degree.

I also think that the new “box making software” that Valiani have will open new opportunities for framers who are working significantly in the preservation/conservation arena.
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Sam Cook »

Hi Roboframer

It certainly sounds like you are in need of a CMC! I just wanted to clarify a couple of things regarding the Wizard. You are correct in thinking the Wizard takes a jumbo board, we don't supply a 'standard' size model which is also a reason why the Wizard Jumbo size is a more competitive price than other makes (ie with only producing 1 size board the production costs are better, also Wizard are the largest manufacturers of CMC's worlwide with over 6000 customers which also allows them to keep costs competitive). We have always chosen to supply the complete package including the PC, software, delivery and training because it makes the pricing clearer so there are no 'hidden extras', and also the complete systems are set up and calibrated together so it is very quick and simple to install the machines in your workshop. It is a matter of plugging the PC together, connecting an airline and it is ready to go!

Regarding the footprint, the size is the same for both the 8000 and 8500e models:
On the floorstand mounted at 15 degrees: 183cm w x 127cm d
On the floorstand mounted at 45 degrees: 183cm w x 97cm d
On the wall mounts: 183cm w x 81cm d
You would just need additional space to stand a monitor and keyboard etc, this could be on either side of the CMC.

However you don't have to use the Wizard on the floorstand or wall mounts, a lot of our customers use it on a bench they already have in the workshop!

You are right in thinking that the after sales service is also very important and we are proud of our good reputation for this. As Mike mentioned as well as the initial on site training we offer free training sessions every month at our offices in Leicester, and twice a year we hold an Advanced Training Session that everyone is invited to. This is always popular as customers get to learn new ideas and techniques as well as meet up with other framers to exchange ideas. The other key issue to consider is how easy the software is to use and does it have all the features you require as standard - it is not much use having a CMC if you can't use the software easily!

I would be happy to post you an information pack which will tell you more about the 2 models and rental and purchase prices etc, and we also include a full version of the software so you can see exactly how to create mounts. I could also arrange to visit you with our mini demo machine so you can see how simple it is to create and cut mounts for yourself.

I'm sure you will have lots more questions so please let me know if I can help.

Sam
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Jared Davis CPF, GCF »

Hi John,

Finally getting close now huh?

Considering everyone else in throwing their hat into the ring, please allow me to drop a quick post of considerations, pro-GUNNAR:

- GUNNAR is the world’s most award-winning CMC manufacturer.

- The popular GUNNAR F1 and F1 Hybrid are available in a 36” x 48” sized table (ideal for your current requirements) as well as a full sized 40” x 60”.

- GUNNAR’s exclusive “spliced mat” template feature is hand for creating the odd “over-oversized” mat job by seamlessly joining two mats.

- Regarding support - GUNNAR directly employs TWO “FULL”-time support technicians in the UK, and it’s NEVER a problem to get help whenever you need it, even on weekends if it is an emergency. GUNNAR also has an online forum for Gunnar owners, which I personally support 7 days a week.

- Regarding ongoing training, you can get “one on one” training from the GUNNAR UK support team whenever you like, and we also make free support video tutorials to help teach you advanced features of the software.

- GUNNAR F1 Hybrid allows you to cut straight or beveled, on the fly, with no user interference or head changes required. You can even cut to the edge of the matboard in some cases, to save wastage.

- GUNNAR F1 Hybrid offers automatic blade depth for ANY thickness of matboard. Change between thicknesses on the fly (8 ply, 4 ply, fabrics, foamboard, etc)…. No more dials to adjust, no blades or cartridges to change, all automatic now!

- The brand new GUNNAR GMC software is very close to official release, and offers even more “industry first” features, worth having a look at, as it is now more user-friendly than ever, including a customizable interface.

John, before you make a lifelong decision, please take a moment to check out MY local Gunnar website here in Australia, and see what you think?
http://www.megawood.com.au/cmc_website/cmcindex.htm

Kind regards from “Down Under”,
Jared Davis CPF, GCF
Roboframer

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Roboframer »

Oh Gawd!

Sam's post almost makes me feel guilty about favouring any other CMC and I've seen your work in Vegas Jared - it's amazing! (Couldn't find you though)

The machines in your link seem different to the ones I've seen at trade shows - I expected some sort of award for completing a lap of them!

So who are the suppliers and technical supporters in UK - link? Link to forum?

How much is the equivalent to the mat pro 150 (basic model - jumbo board) does it take more or less space than the Valiani?

Technical pros and cons aside - how does it compete, on a personal level, with being distributed by a company I have dealt with for years and used by a whole bunch of people I consider friends who I can contact here - maybe with a short wait, or pretty much instantly via a Skype chat group?

Who else here has one?

But anyway - in no way would I consider the purchase of any CMC a 'lifelong decision' or pretty much any material object - it's not like I'm getting married to the sodding thing and it's going to produce little oval mountcutters and run off with them with a framer with a bigger wallet - or something!

It's replaceable - and so's my car - and the second I drove THAT off the forecourt it depreciated by something silly like 25%!!

CMCs, Morsos etc, seem to hold their value better and if I screw up - and I don't think I will with the Valiani - it'll be 'ah well' and move up and on.
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by prospero »

Don't muck about John. Get one of each. :clap:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
Roboframer

Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Roboframer »

A Valiwizaguntruzund?
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Jared Davis CPF, GCF »

Hi John,
You asked a lot of questions of me, so if you don’t mind, I have a lot of answers for you. :)
Thank you for your compliments regarding my designs. I’m sorry I didn’t get to meet you in Las Vegas…. The only time I was off the stand, was when I was teaching classes… must have been then? I would have liked to have met you, as you are a very “entertaining” contributor to forums, who I always enjoy reading.
So who are the suppliers and technical supporters in UK - link? Link to forum?
The GUNNARUK office and contact details can be found here:
http://www.gunnar-europe.com/index.php?id=68
Similar to other CMC manufacturers, the Gunnar support forum is private to Gunnar CMC owners only, with logins and passwords, so we don’t have to rely on a public, third party forum to provide this level of support.
How much is the equivalent to the mat pro 150 (basic model - jumbo board)
Regarding price, you will have to contact my UK counterparts for this information. If it is similar to “Down Under”, it certainly won’t be “the cheapest” CMC on the market, but like anything I guess, at the end of the day you get what you pay for?
The closest models to consider, for your proposed requirements, would be the GUNNAR F1-XL and the GUNNAR F1-XL Hybrid, depending on the extra features you may require? You can upgrade an F1 into an F1 Hybrid down the track if you require too.
does it take more or less space than the Valiani?
Less space. The GUNNAR F1 can be virtually wall mounted, which is a huge space saver if required, or operate on an angle, on an existing bench, or with it’s own adjustable stand. In horizontal (flat) operation, the F1-XL is 1873mm x 1414mm overall, and smaller F1-M is 1533mm x 1284mm overall.
The machines in your link seem different to the ones I've seen at trade shows
I believe we only had an initial early prototype of the GUNNAR F1 Hybrid at Springfair and Las Vegas earlier this year, but the final release version of the GUNNAR F1 Hybrid has changed with considerable improvements since then. Unless you came to the recent Framing Show in Sydney in June, no one else has seen the final version of this new CMC as yet?
Who else here has one?
Fair question. The first of the new GUNNAR F1 HYBRID‘s were only installed in July, so there are not many of these in place around the globe yet, but they do represent the latest award winning technology.
Don’t take me the wrong way, but please keep in mind, that forum’s like this, don’t necessarily represent “the majority” of the market, however I do appreciate the valuable strength in the “public” communal bond it offers. If this public level of support and friendship is more important to you than other considerations, I completely understand.
If you wish to speak to other UK based GUNNAR CMC owners, I’m sure that the team from the GUNNAR UK office can provide you with an extensive list of framers who rely on their GUNNAR CMCs (albeit, may not be regular forum participants?).
how does it compete, on a personal level, with being distributed by a company I have dealt with for years
Good question. As far as competing with a company you have dealt with for years, I can understand the close relationship, and level of security that offers you and your business. However, in GUNNAR’s favour, The UK based GUNNAR Support Team are only focused on Gunnar, directly employed by GUNNAR, and do not have any other activities, distractions, machines or responsibilities to hinder their ability to offer support when needed.

Rather than working through a “distributor” with potentially limited and “delayed” knowledge, you are dealing directly with the company itself. Something I cannot even claim in my humble position “Down Under”! If you provide feedback, it goes straight back to company level itself, not filtered through extra communication links.
Oh, yeah, did I mention that they are always “available” when you need them, and there’s more than just “one” of them?

I don’t mean to offend anyone in saying this, but personally, as a representative of a CMC manufacturer, I would honestly not be proud of the fact that certain CMC end users have to resort on relying on “each other” for support, by being forced to create their own network themselves, because they couldn’t get a good enough level of support directly from the manufacturer? Many times on this forum, I’ve observed comments of disappointment in this regard, that would have left me, as a support technician, speechless with an unacceptable feeling of guilt for letting someone down if I was responsible for the support on a model of CMC? But over and over again, it all seems to get “forgiven”, and solutions seem to come from end users, rather than the manufacturer…. Flame me if you will, but in my opinion, I don’t believe life should have to be like that? There’s more to this industry than what you see on one or two public forums… some machines can be more reliable than others, and some company’s can offer better support than others…. I guess it’s just not as evident from everyone’s standpoint?
instantly via a Skype chat group?
All Gunnar representatives, including myself, are available on Skype, and have used it frequently for many years, for offering support, all around the globe.
in no way would I consider the purchase of any CMC a 'lifelong decision' or pretty much any material object
Fair enough John. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to misunderstand you. Because of the level of investment involved, I’ve found many framers do consider it this way, and for those that do, I encourage them to take their time, and do their research first, before rushing into anything. And don’t be distracted by a so-called “here’s deal if you decide today”… offer.

Due to predicable passions and emotions, I suspect I may be flamed for some points I’ve may in this post but please allow me to say this….
I respect everyone on this forum, and consider all of you in high regard, but I also understand it is human nature to get a bit passionate and emotional, which I myself am guilty of, because like many of you, I believe in what I do. At the end of the day, I hope we can all look beyond this, and not take anything personally, and appreciate the fact that we have this forum to share our views openly, without fear of each other cutting us down.

Kind regards,
Jared
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Vix »

I too have been considering purchasing a cmc for a while now trying to weigh up the pros and cons of each one.

I don't know about anybody else but I think I would find it a lot easier to make a more informed decision if there was a table of comparison between each of the cutters, which compared various factors ie. size, cutting heads, cost etc. I know it helps to speak to individuals about their respective machines but sometimes as a starter, a quick comparison guide can help to steer you towards the machine(s) which are of more use to your individual needs before needing to speak to somebody in more depth. I know a similar online guide based more to the Amercan market exists but maybe many potential UK framers considering purchasing one would find a UK based table very useful. Just a thought.
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Re: The Time Has Come!

Post by Merlin »

I believe the American guide you are referring to is:
http://www.getthepictureframing.com/gfaq/cmc.htm

The machines across the pond are the same as in the UK. So the comments given apply here as well as there.
The only difference is the distributor and of course the costs.

Your best bet is to attend the Spring Fair, where all the UK CMC distributors are in attendance with their respective machines and will freely give you a demonstration as well as answering your questions. Having said that - and no offence is meant when I say they are sales persons and will of course praise their own CMC over and above the competitor. So you also need to talk to end users to find out what their own individual experiences have been.

A suggestion if I may. Have a design in hand and get the demonstrator to show you the process from start to finish, that way you will see what is involved.

You are wise in doing your research. A CMC can be an expensive outlay and you need to find the one that fits your pocket and your business profile as well as the ongoing support given once you have the machine in hand.
John GCF
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