The Time Has Come!

[Roboframer]

This thread has resulted in some great info for anyone thinking about a CMC and I've had some banter via phone, PM and Skype outside of it too.

Someone said to me today that owners of machines can hardly be impartial - maybe that's true, but if they've had bad experiences they wouldn't be shy about sharing them either - I've bought a stack of things I hate - not necc framing related (NEVER buy a Tefal Acti-fry - mine caught fire yesterday - one month after the warranty expired!) so a whole bunch of end users swapping experiences good and bad is a great resource - the supplier/manufacturer would not be sharing the bad bits!

Any machine mentioned here is a fabulous machine and no matter how fast, durable, easy to change from straight cut to angled cut etc etc - it'll still make any framer's life easier.

S/he he just has to weigh up the pro's and con's of cost, maintenance, performance, customer service, software and maybe most importantly - instinct. Which one makes you smile the most when you see it in action, which demonstrators do the same - do any of your pals own one? Things like this matter to a first timer, well did for this one!

Maybe 3 CMCs down the line I'll opt for a machine that is the only one in the UK - I like to be different!

For now though - it's Valiani.

Very excited!

[Nigel Nobody]

Congratulations, John on your decision to jump into yet another piece of technology.
There is some great info and comments in this thread and it's good to see so much passion and helpful contributions.

I would also like to contribute a few thoughts.

Mike Labbe's chart is worthwhile reading, but - yes there are some 'buts'! A chart such as this is limited in what it can provide. It provides a list of technical comparisons, but there are a number of issues it cannot tell you and IMHO those are more important!
Items such as cut quality (which is usually in the eye of the beholder), precision, after sales support, external support factors like the framers forum, etc, long term reliability & durability, manufacturers reputation & credibility, ongoing service requirements (if any…), how many mats can be cut with one blade, etc, etc.

The chart will show that all brands can cut, rectangles, circles, ovals and some fancy corners, but does the chart show you that Gunnar is the only machine that can cut ovals and circles with no visible start finish point?
Just because all machines claim they can cut ovals doesn't mean they will cut an oval with the same quality, speed and reliability!

The 'ingredients' are all shown in the chart, but that's all. Imagine three bakers who are all given the ingredients to bake a cake. They will all bake a cake, but they will bake three completely different cakes! Imagine three framers who 'claim to make frames'......

Imagine if the public did a comparative spreadsheet on all the framers in your suburb…. would it really reflect “the truth” or not?

Some people have comfort in being communal “crabs in a bucket” because they feel safety in this, and occasionally, you get a crab that decides to climb out of the bucket to see if there’s something different beyond the bucket, without allowing themselves to be pulled back down by the others.

Whether you choose the perceived “safe path” to be the same as everyone else, is up to you?”

[markw]

Crabs in buckets - how rude! Well Norman, So your unbiased opinion counts eh? You seem to be so out of touch with the newer machines and their capabilities that your comments just manage to confuse as opposed to inform. You posted earlier that cut quality varied - but failed to support your comments. Seems to be that the bucket on this forum is already full....

[Nigel Nobody]

Mark,
No, I'm not out of touch with modern machines. I've seen mats cut with a number of different machines several weeks ago, and there is a difference. Some people accept certain differences and that's their choice. If you think all CMC's cut exactly the same, thats OK, but my opinion is different.
It's not up to me to supply proof to you that there are differences. That's something you would need to see for yourself.

[Vix]

Just to clarify that the idea of having a comparison chart was so that the individual could do a quick scan before deciding which machine(s) best fit their particular needs within their business. Some may not have all the capabilities needed or add ons ie. cutting sizes, box making capabilities, ink lining etc that others have. For someone like me this type of information would save me time, which is often at a premium these days (cos i'm too busy cutting mounts ).

I'm then not opposed to asking companies for more detailed information once i've decided which cmc(s) will best fit my needs before deciding on which to go for but (and no disrespect to any sales reps out there) I don't want to spend ages on the receiving end of lots and lots of sales pitches if it's not the machine for me.

I think the information particularly from all you folks out there who have already taken the plunge and are using cmc's is really invaluable, possibly more so than from the companies who sell and manufacture them. This is because it helps to get a much more accurate picture of both good and bad points about each cmc from 'real' users.

I don't know if the 'crab' comment was aimed at myself but I can assure you i'm no crab! I just hate not having sufficient information & wasting time that's all, especially when all I sometimes want is maybe a piece of information that isn't available on a companies website or sales info. That's why i'm assuming there are so many comparision sites on the web, which are designed to save time and filter all those things that are and aren't relevant to the individual.

[Roboframer]

I was a crab in a bucket - finally taking the decision to get ANY CMC at all was me jumping out of it!

I was initially just going to go for the cheapest CMC I could possibly find, because it'll be some time before the thing stops yawning at the mundane tasks I'll be giving it.

[birdman]

We bought our CMC at the Spring Fair in Feb 08 and have had it working from May 08. It was a boon when we bought it and it still is. It does what we want it too and it's versatile enough to do much more as we are discovering bit by bit. For someone selling mounts in large quantities it really pays for itself as Merlin can confirm. For standard and multi aperture mounts it's a doddle to set it cutting and then get on with something else.

We thought long and hard about purchasing our CMC and agonised over the decision of which one was for us. They are all good in their own ways and support from the agent or manufacturer is important. But for us it was important to see the machines and what they could do.

We chose Spring Fair because we could see all four manufacturers on one site. They should all be eager to demonstrate and sell. As has been suggested we took a design or combination of designs to each stand and asked them to cut it for us. Two did it brilliantly, one couldn't do it and one wouldn't do it. So it left us with a decision between two. My wife preferred one because she thought the software easier to understand, I liked the other for similar reasons and because I already had experience with a friends CMC. For reasons that escape me we went with my wife's decision and I have to say been very happy with that decision. Funny really because she has never used it since then. The CMC we chose was good value (because of the show offers and hard bargaining) and (touch wood) has not given us any trouble at all.

I haven't mentioned any manufacturers names because at the end of the day you'll make your decision based on cost, engineering, cutting standards, what it will do, whether if it can be rented or leased and how well you're treated when you speak to the company concerned. What other users say is also important, good and bad comment. Initially training and support are essential so ensure that that will be forthcoming, a strong network of support is important and it's useful if you can talk to others who also have the same make of machine, because you form a self help group.

Finally, we are starting to make more use of the design function to create bespoke mounts. You either need prior experience of design software or access to training if this is what you intend to do yourself. As can be seen there are strong opinions on this forum, they may help you form an opinion but seeing is believing so good luck with your decision.

Rolf

[Roboframer]

Update,

We gave Joe the 'offical' go-ahead yesterday - could have done that a couple of weeks ago but pointless as it would have arrived with my framer away on hols - so - 4 things to do now.

Saw one end off workbench
Re-locate dartboard
Buy Silent Compressor plus hose and attachments
Buy a Computer

My Val leaves Italy on Friday.

[span2iels]

Good Lad - you won't regret it.

MalR

[Dermot]

Way to go John, it will be such process improvement for you.

I just fired up my machine on Monday, it has been under wraps because of the building work, within an hour or I had all the mount-mats cut that I needed to get on with some urgent framing jobs, if I had to cut them by hand I would have being at them for a full day.

Next job it to move the Val from the sitting room (Jean will be so pleased) into the workshop and get the custom made bench sorted, hopefully I will do that next week, I’m waiting on floor covering before I move to much stuff into the workshop.

Let me know what you do on the compressor, I really need to get a silent one, I bought two very cheap ones in Aldi work fine but a bit loud, they came with loads of tubing with fittings and all sort of other bits for setting up various equipment, they were €120 euro each, the fittings when I priced them sepertaly would have cost me twice that alone never mind the cost of the compressor…..one will eventually be a back up should the main “silent” (when I get it) compressor sit down.

Anyway all the best, you will love your Valaini it’s a great piece of production equipment.

[John]

Dermot, to avoid the racket created by your compressor, it could be placed in a weatherproof box (like a dog kennel) outside your workshop.

[birdman]

Dermot we have a Bambi budget compressor, a double head 500 litre, one of the silent ones for medical use? It sits in the workshop and is hardly noticeable when it is running. We bought it from Simons but you might get a better deal elsewhere. It runs both our Val and the underpinner and has capacity for more.

[Nigel Nobody]

so - 4 things to do now.

Saw one end off workbench
Re-locate dartboard
Buy Silent Compressor plus hose and attachments
Buy a Computer

Strike me lucky John......a computer in the shop is going a bit far isn't it???

[Roboframer]

Had to happen sooner or later - I suppose this must be 'later' but it's sooner than we anticipated!

We were surprised by a phone call from the carrier on Tuesday, saying a dirty great pallet and 3 boxes would be with us on Thursday. We were expecting it to take 2 weeks to arrive - that's why I confirned when I did - my framer would be back 2 weeks from then and I could make a window in the orders to facilitate installation & training.

Wouldn't want something this size hanging about for too long either! Behind it you can see my manual cutter on the workbench - it used to live to the left on a shelf that made it flush with the bench - I cut it off to make room.

The Beast 001.jpg

So - now we had to get a move on - no PC and no (dedicated) compressor - plus I had to remove that mountcutter table and move around a load of stuff, like plan chests, whilst still keeping on top of orders, alone. The trainer/installer would (surely) be coming any day, just as long as it was after my framer gets back from Spain (tomorrow)

Ordered a PC and a Single Bambi on Weds - compressor arrived on Friday and the PC arrived on Thurs just after the big box


So - here's the first computer that has ever set foot in this shop!

The Beast 002.jpg

And the beast in situ - air and electrics connected - assembled yesterday; finished it off today. Yesterday I was lucky - Karen's husband who is 6'8" picked her up from work - so the four of us hoisted the bed on to the stand which I'd assembled earlier.

The Beast 003.jpg

During the frantic sawing, reorganising and ordering, we got a call from the engineer who would be installing and training. He'd be along on Wed 14 and Fri 16 Oct!!! Leaving me with this thing gathering dust for 2 weeks, my manual cutter taking up bench space and also not very nice to use as it's not flush with the bench.

I won't go in to details about how it was sorted, but sorted it was and now John (Merlin) is coming instead - TOMORROW!

[Dermot]

Great location for the VAL up to the end of the workbench, you have me thinking that I may rethink where I will locate may machine when it moves into the workshop, hopefully late this week or early next week.

BTW it may be better if you can to have the computer that you can work and look at it and be facing the VAL at the same time……..you may have this done already from the photos it looks like the computer is behind the VAL.

Anyway all the best with your training tomorrow, that said I don’t think you will need any luck John’s (Merlin) approach to training is great or at least it was foe me.

If you can have a few “real” live mount-mat jobs that need producing, that way you will get beyond the “standard” training, there is nothing better than a real production to focus the mind.

This is one I did thirteen openings…………In fact the first mount-mat that I cut on the Valaini that I got paid for, up to that one all I had cut were ones for testing and for some personal framing, it was also the first multi aperture (over 3 openings) I had cut, it took me about 30 to 45 minutes to figure how to set the software up for that one, I would guess with practices that would drop to a few minutes………

[Roboframer]

....it may be better if you can to have the computer that you can work and look at it and be facing the VAL at the same time……..you may have this done already from the photos it looks like the computer is behind the VAL.

It is behind it - but the little unit the monitor and the mouse is on is on castors and can be swung around to face the machine - I do have an identical, but larger unit, which will take the keyboard as well, which I intended to use, but for now, can't. Area of too much activity - this is a 'to get me set up and going' arrangement (IOW I underestimated things!) In time I'll reduce the size of the bench further, (it's still 12x6' - snooker table size) plus move my glass storage location from in front of the CMC to the left of my excalibur - more. I have heard of framers with their computer nowhere near the CMC though!

What I'd really like is a whacking great LCD/Plasma screen hanging above the CMC and the whole shebang controlled by a little laser pen clipped to my shirt pocket! Broadband connection next though.

If you can have a few “real” live mount-mat jobs that need producing, that way you will get beyond the “standard” training, there is nothing better than a real production to focus the mind.……

I've at least two multiple aperture jobs and plenty of singles, plus double mounts with fillets between - can't wait to see how the Val cuts a double mount with a reverse bevel on the top one - or a triple aperture triple mount - it'll be a doddle to the Valiani - and John, I know - but it'll be like all my Christamasses coming at once, to me!

[Nigel Nobody]

John,
Congratulations! This is a life changing time in your existence as a framer. Don't smash a champagne bottle on it at the official launch!
It won't be very long before you are wishing you did this ten years ago!
First there was plastic coated wire, now CMC and puter in the shop, then did I hear the word "broadband" mentioned......where will this end???

Will you be inviting the local press to do a feature on your new machine and it's capabilities?

Yikes, your workshop is as messy as mine. You should be ashamed - nah, it's a good sign that you are a busy man and putting your efforts into the more important aspects of business!

[Roboframer]

There's a reason I have a snooker table-sized workbench - it's always clean and clear, has to be - and that's a big clean and clear area! Plenty of storage underneath too.

[birdman]

Congratulations John welcome to the Valiani Owners Club (V.O.C) and the wonderful world of Simon's support

I look forward to hearing about the training and your gentle introduction by Merlin to the CMC and puter. Good luck sorr...

[Roboframer]

First there was plastic coated wire, now CMC and puter in the shop, then did I hear the word "broadband" mentioned......where will this end???

Don't forget the website! ------> ----------->

Will you be inviting the local press to do a feature on your new machine and it's capabilities?

Not a bad idea - it's the only one for miles.