Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

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Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Not your average framer »

I'm currently making big changes to my business and how I do business. I am very well equiped in most aspects, but to date I don't yet have a CMC.

I have been persuaded by two framers who opinions I trust and respect to seriously consider renting a Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid. This will be a very big change for me and how I run my business, particularly in re-arranging where almost everything in the premises will be located.

The best deal in terms of cost of rentals would be the standard size F1, but I'm still wondering if the lowest cost option might be "penny wise", but pounds foolish" if the extra capabilities proved to be something I should have after all.

Not surprisingly, I have a lot of questions:

If I wanted to cut additional "nested" mounts to utilise any wastage, the outside cut would be 45 degrees, not 90 degrees. I think I can sell job lots of extra mounts to local artists, impulse buys to tourists, or even on eBay, but 45 degree outside cuts might not appeal to customers. So, should I pay the extra and rent the Hybrid and if I do, is having the Hybrid likely to result in extra income and if so why?

I'm quite interested in the box making facility, which I understand would make the Hybrid a neccessary choice. I have my doubts about the cost and advantages of making boxes for packaging, unless this would be an easy and profitable way of using left over scrap, but I have some interesting ideas for box framing, object framing, football shirt framing, etc. I know I can get plenty of football and memorabilia related orders from particular local customers if I want to. How many other framers find a CMC box making facility is worth having for object framing purposes and was it worth paying the extra cost?

Is it the experience of most CMC owners that buying a CMC really benefited the business and why.

Are there any other pros and cons, I need to consider?

Thanks in anticipation,
Mark
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Jared Davis CPF, GCF
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Jared Davis CPF, GCF »

Additional to points you've already made, here are some more "Pros" for Hybrid head, which you may / may not have already considered....

Straight cut is handy for
- cutting 3-5mm thick foamboard blanks -
- cutting custom "internal supports" for sports jerseys - (via a handful of special new templates I programmed)
- cutting "to the edge" to reduce wastege (cut to the top right hand corner of the full sheet in the table)
- cutting perfectly parallel and "non-tapered" liner edge strips for lining the inside edges of shadow box frames.

The hybrid head also features an infinitely precise "Automatic Blade Depth" control feature, for both bevel or straight cut- so if you plan on using different thickness mounts or materials (ie: 4 ply, Fabric mat, 8 Ply mat, 2 ply foil, e-flute for boxes, etc) then this is ideal. No turning dials or changing blade holders to adjust depth - it's all automatic. Keep in mind that different brands of "4 Ply" mountboard - can be very different thicknesses too! Great for cutting double mats in "one hit" from the front too. Some framers like the automatic blade depth feature more than the bevel/straight hybrid technology.

Cheers,

Jared from Australia
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Not your average framer »

Thanks Jared,

May I ask, in your opinion, what new business generation options should I be considering if I buy a Gunnar, or what is the startest way to capitalise on have just started using a CMC?
Thanks,
Mark
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Gesso&Bole
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Gesso&Bole »

Mark
I've got the standard F1. It's a great machine, and would make a hugely positive impact on any framing business. But the Hybrid head is a better machine, and more up to date technology. Go for the best you can afford. Certainly if you are selling mounts on their own, a 45 degree outside cut is not as professional.

I will be upgrading to the hybrid head soon. Does that answer your question?
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
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Jared Davis CPF, GCF
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Jared Davis CPF, GCF »

May I ask, in your opinion, what new business generation options should I be considering if I buy a Gunnar, or what is the startest way to capitalise on have just started using a CMC?
Hi Mark,

Without knowing your or your business situation firsthand, it's not easy for me to answer this question in a paragraph or two without providing generic response. However - the money is always in the core product - adding value to standard mountcutting is number 1.

However, I did "write a book" called "Getting the Most Value from your CMC" - which you may find contained some helpful detailed information and ideas on how framers have gotten value from their CMC's.

You can buy this from the Picture Framing Magazine online bookstore - or from Megawood Larson-Juhl in Australia - or even possibly from Sarah at Gunnar UK too?

http://www.pictureframingmagazine.com/b ... ?Section=4
http://www.jared-davis.com/cmc_book.htm

BTW - Even though we offer both F1 & F1 Hybrid to the Australian Market down here, 95% of the Gunnar F1 CMC's we sell "Down Under" are "Hybrids", and 5% are "Standard F1's" - if that helps answer you question a bit more too?

Cheers,

Jared
markw

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by markw »

I had a "standard" cmc for years - upgraded this year to a machine that cuts draws etc. The extra uses makes the machine so much better. Jared's comments about cutting foamcore - shirtformers etc make the point - the extra head gives you versatility.

I dont have a Gunnar - but I think they are offering a pen head as well - even more opportunity to sell mounts - signatures - pin lines etc.

Gunnar had some fantastic designs on display at the FFL.
Graysalchemy

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Graysalchemy »

Any CMC will revolutionise your business, you will wonder how you managed without it. You are obviously set on a gunnar, we all have personal preferences when it comes to machines, but I have a trucut which will do all those things no bother, even the trucut trophy will do all those things with the appropriate heads and perhaps cheaper than a gunnar (I may be wrong).
Roboframer

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Roboframer »

We may all have personal preferences, but how many framers base them on experience of owning different makes of machine?
Graysalchemy

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Graysalchemy »

True but you tend to make an opinion before you buy based on experiences of others as well as weighing up the pro's and con's of each machine.
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Merlin »

Not your average framer wrote: I think I can sell job lots of extra mounts to local artists, impulse buys to tourists, or even on eBay, but 45 degree outside cuts might not appeal to customers
As GA says, having a CMC will change your business profile.
However, the return on your investment could take a lot of years. Even the rental option at around the £280-£300 per month, is a lot to recover.
Are you sure that you will be able to match the prices on Ebay. Have a look and enter 'Picture Mounts'. You will find well over 9000 results. Plus there are a lot of dedicated mountcutters out there chasing the market.

I agree that having a CMC is like having an extra employee (without all the hassle) and it used to make you unique/different from the picture framer down the road who did not have one. Not really the case now as more and more picture framers and photographers are getting them for their own premises and diversifying into 'picture mount supplies' market.
John GCF
Nigel Nobody

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Nigel Nobody »

Mark,
If you can afford to spend the extra money, go for the Hybrid. You have made a great choice! The quality of build, the accuracy of the machine, the speed and above all the sophistication of the new software makes it a great choice. I can't wait to see the new penhead working at the show in Sydney. I could use that every day, but alas, I can't fit one to my Rapido!

As far as recommendations of CMC's are concerned, not anywhere near as beneficial as comparing demonstrations of different brands yourself. Just like buying a car, you listen to what others say about their choice, but you check them out yourself and test drive them.
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by holtons »

Mark
Interesting as we have been going through the same considerations over the last few weeks.

I spent a few hours at FFL looking at the different products. My out-take of seeing them all "side by side" is there are real pros and cons of each but we have almost certainly decided to go for a Wizard dual head on rental. Yes, the Gunnar is fully auto (cutting depth and blade switching) but the Wizard, in my opinion, has by far the easiest to use software and we felt this was a bigger advantage.

For us, the decision to get a CMC is based purely on the efficiency, consistency and quality gains we will achieve. A CMC will dramatically reduce the time it takes to cut anything other than the very simplest mounts and it will do it to a very high standard. Mount cutting can eat huge amounts of time that could be better put to making more frames.

So, I suggest that you don't just think about how you can get a Return on Investment (RoI) on mount cutting alone as I doubt if you will ever get the numbers to stack unless you can get high volume throughput. Perhaps better to look at it this way: if the CMC frees up 1 hour per day of mount cutting, you can make an extra frame in that time. Now the profit from each one of those should certainly pay for your CMC rental. Well that's my view anyway!
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Not your average framer »

My thanks to all concerned, for drawing my attention to so many aspects I need to consider while making my decision. I am strongly convinced that getting a CMC could be the most important step I can take at this time to further develop my business

My main motivation in getting a CMC is creativity, versatilty, quality of service to my customers, profitability and improved long term business performance. I think that the right CMC can and should be able to tick all those boxes. Which ever way you look at it, a CMC enables you to have a massive impact in presentation of all framed items.

Accuracy and repeatabiliy when framing further work for previous customers is something I hope will be beneficial for maintaining customer loyality. If I save customers designs and information, then if the customer want something framed to match prervious work it's should be easy. Adding exra value to my work, without significant extra labour is another big attraction.

Also, I would like to incentivise my customers to go for some additional added value. For instance, with a CMC there should be very little extra effort needed to cut a double mount compared to a single mount, so if I tell them that the second mount costs less than the first, perhaps only half the cost of the first mount. I think there will be other similar options which discerning customers might go for if the price is made sufficiently attractive and if I have a CMC it makes these options possible without significant extra labour, then I think this should help my business grow and develop.

I did mention cutting mounts to sell on eBay, as this might be a way of recovering some small level of cash from mountboard which I otherwise would throw into the dumpster. Even if I did this, I certainly would not want to sell small numbers of such mounts to individual customers as I don't want the hassle, but if someone would take a big box of 200 to 300 mounts in random colours as a left over by product of my normal framing activities, then why not! On balance I'm not sure if this is even worth doing, but would like to know if anyone already gains profitable business from doing anything similar.

At present, I am strongly attracted to the Gunnar F1 Hybrid. The idea of not having to change heads when doing compicated work is something I like. Just hit the start button and go for it, that's for me! The availablity of all these extra heads on other machines may sound great, but I'm yet to be convinced that messing around changing heads is entirely neccessary for want I want from a CMC.

Currently I still need to be educated about what I can and can't do with a CMC and how to make the most of having one, so please feel free to educate me and help me understand what I need to know while making this decision.
Thanks,
Mark
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Nigel Nobody

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Nigel Nobody »

Not your average framer wrote: Also, I would like to incentivise my customers to go for some additional added value. For instance, with a CMC there should be very little extra effort needed to cut a double mount compared to a single mount, so if I tell them that the second mount costs less than the first, perhaps only half the cost of the first mount. I think there will be other similar options which discerning customers might go for if the price is made sufficiently attractive and if I have a CMC it makes these options possible without significant extra labour, then I think this should help my business grow and develop.
Mark,
Think very carefully before you implement half price second mats. Second mat costs you the same to buy as the first mat. It takes exactly the same time to whack the second mat in the machine and cut it. It takes time to apply an adhesive to hold the two together, therefore a second mat is more costly to you than the first one.

It could also give customers the impression that the second one is less valuable to them than the first.
If you later realise you should have been getting the same price, or close to it, it will be more difficult to raise the price of second mats. You can always give someone a price break on their individual job if they are wavering and means improving the sale and making a better design.

Selling most people a double mat, when it looks much better than a single, is not difficult.

I've had my CMC for 10 years and have always sold the second/third mats for exactly the same price as the first. Customers will realise that they are getting a more attractive and impressive job with two mats. Show them plenty of examples of double and triple mats!

All I'm saying is consider all the ramifications before implementing it permanently. Don't give away any of your cash if you don't need to!
Nigel Nobody

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Nigel Nobody »

As far as what you can do and can't do, is concerned, every framing business has differences so gather as many ideas as you can and make plenty of examples in order to discover what your customers want to buy.
Most of my mat cutting is just bog standard, but I do some special cuts. My greatest benefit is in time saved, and second would be accuracy, especially with multiple mats.

You could also look into making signage for other businesses and cut quotations and sayings in matboards, framed to sell. They could also include logos and other images.

If I was fortunate enough to have a Hybrid and the new Pen tool, I could use that to my advantage very often. Not only for decorating mats, but for labelling photos, medals, objects and personal items. It would be a great tool to help add value to many jobs.

Oh yeah, and get hold of Jared's book!
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Not your average framer »

My thanks to all who have posted. I have decided to go for the F1-Hybrid. I have chosen a Gunnar because I wanted the very best machine for my own specific needs and not on the basis of other things a machine may, or may not be able to do. I also particularly liked the fact that I will never have to change heads to do anything I need to do.
My thanks to all,
Mark
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Roboframer

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Roboframer »

Way to go Mark! If I owned a Gunnar hybrid I'd be calling other CMC's "Wurzel Gummidges" (It's a long clip but you'll get the gist in the first minute) an 'andsome 'ed is no good - you 'ave to be 'andsome inside :D

[youtube]eOTNAe3j7Bs[/youtube]
Nigel Nobody

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Nigel Nobody »

Good on yer Mark.

I'm certain you will be very pleased with your new toy and you won't want to stop cutting mats, day in and day out.

I'm extremely envious!
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Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Ormond,

I haven't got it yet! There's a lot to do first. Just about everything in the shop has to be moved. The whole way that I work and organise my business is going to be changed too! And all before I get the machine, which is having it's very own clean working room. I'm even gettting new Vinyl floor covering for the room.

My apparently oldie worldie little shop is getting modernised fast. Last week I bought a secondhand Gielle 4000e underpinner. Yes, compressor powered at last!

Tomorrow, I'm getting an existing spare computer from my home fitted with an ethernet card ready for broadband in the shop. Until now, the shop has been a computer free zone.

Next week, I'm getting a secondhand Bambi compressor and the shop is getting a broadband connection.

Some of those who know me are shocked by the news of the coming transformation!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Graysalchemy

Re: Gunnar F1 or F1 Hybrid?

Post by Graysalchemy »

Next you will be telling us you're getting gas and electricity :giggle: :giggle: .

Good choice of compressor is it a single or twin pot? Don't forget to look after it, drain the tank regularly and check the oil. I had to dust mine down the other week when the beast broke down, I forgot how quiet they are.
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