Conservation Framers???

Conservation Issues
Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

John wrote: You know, it appears that a whole lot of grown-up, mature folk don't mind posting (even been known to 'start a thread') in a great forum with the wonderfully self-mocking title of "The Framers Grumble".
Yep - and that's the name for the whole forum - well - it's 'The Picture Framers' Grumble' actually and 'The Grumble' is the main framing forum within; anything you need to know about TFG - I'm yer man as the senior member in The British Isles. Although there are other members of TFG here that joined waaaaaay before me - Ormond is one of the first registered Grumblers.

Here's a copy and paste from the FATG's website on glass for their 'museum level' of framing .....

"Preferably museum-quality glazing should be used, ie glazing that blocks more than 90 per cent of all UV rays"

"Preferably" eh?

Take the FATG's two top levels to TFG and oh how they (we) will laugh.

PS - can we have a Guild Bashing forum and also a 'who gives one' type of forum - ya know, as an extreme to this one, with the general discussion forum for the stuff imbetween.

Or we could have 5 forums to match the FATG's 5 levels of framing, then, of course, if you wanted to get really serious, you could just click on TFG :rock:
osgood

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by osgood »

Roboframer wrote: "Preferably museum-quality glazing should be used, ie glazing that blocks more than 90 per cent of all UV rays"

"Preferably" eh?
The other part that is of great concern is the 90 per cent!!! That seems a bit low to me since Tru Vue states their three UV glass products block 99 per cent!
I don't know what other brands of UV glass are available up there, but it seems to me that the FATG are being very 'wimpy' with their 90 per cent requirement.
Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

Well they have to be careful what they say you see - if they say 99% then it limits them to Tru Vu - and there is other stuff out there - like a product I use which is 'waterwhite' with UV - far far clearer than Tru Vu and without the ripple and discoloration too - but the penalty is less UV protection. 90% actually!

They wouldn't want to upset the supplier(s) that sell that stuff, as they sponsor them and their awards, and spend a fortune on advertising with them.

Their standards cannot be impartial - if they were they would radically change their mountboard standards - but Nielsen are not members, in fact Nielsen fell out with them big time a few years ago over those very standards.

Non-cotton artcare boards out-perform non-artcare cotton boards - a fact they will never state - this, the glass thing and more, is plain & simple evidence that if you want to do things to the highest standards you need impartial advice.

TFG works for me!
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by gesso »

Roboframer wrote:What needs/warrants the best treatment aside - there is some dire advice flying around over here on what constitutes conservation framing.
Here! Here! ......apart from the US bit.. lived there. All i cn say is mulberry to you sir
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Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

Whilst bumping this I thought I'd just add that the lack of activity on this outgassing forum proves what i said early on.

I'm bumping it with these words - not my own, but a great summary.

"When you can earn a profit, satisfy a customer, and take the best possible care of the items in the project, you've done the best a framer can hope to do."

Not happening is it!
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by James Miller »

We enjoy similar conversations in the USA framing forums. There, as here, some participants embrace preservation framing enthusiastically, while others seem to resent the concept, as though it is practiced mainly by arrogant know-it-alls trying to stuff their ways down everyone's gullet. Not so, in most cases. Frame as you wish. As American framer Ellen Collins says, "Take what you can use and leave the rest".

In the USA, one basic misunderstanding of preservation framing is that it is an all-or-nothing proposition. In my opinion, every part and procedure that goes into a frame either helps or hinders its protective quality. Preservation standards have been written for all framing components and techniques, but we need not use them all at once. We are free to choose among them for whatever job is at hand. So, Mrs. Customer, how much preservation do you want?

I suggest that it is not enough to know which materials and methods are deemed suitable for preservation and which are not. It is also important to know how and why protective features work to benefit the items within the frame. I want to be able (and willing) to help customers understand the differences, in order for them to make informed decisions about the framing they will buy. No, we are not patronizing toward our customers. Yes, we educate them; we help them understand. I want my customers to know and understand the protective value -- or lack of it -- in the frame designs they buy. Their understanding represents a sort of "emotional ownership", which improves buyers' confidence in their decisions and eliminates buyers' remorse. Long term satisfaction follows closely.

For example, it is common in my shop to use UV-filtering glass on cheap posters drymounted, simply because it will likely double or triple the useful lifespan of the framed art. So, it represents a better investment for the customer who wants to enjoy their framed art perhaps twice as long before losing it to light damage, and having to buy new. It is also common to use polystyrene frame mouldings on items of significant value, but in that case we would line the rabbet (or is it rebate?) with a gas-impermeable barrier.

Thank you, Osgood, for breaching the topic this time. And to you as well, Robo, for taking the heat. It has been my pleasure to meet both of you, and I look forward to our future encounters.
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by John »

We are fortunate on this forum that, in its five or so years of its existence, we have never had anyone who resented the concept of preservation framing, or at least anyone who voiced such a sentiment.

However, perhaps it is a misapprehension on my part, but on forums such as these, framers who usually employ less than the highest preservation standards can be made to feel that they are not as skilled or knowledgeable as those who do. And while this is often the case, the opposite can sometimes also be true.

I sincerely believe that all framers on this forum should be made to feel equally welcome, regardless of the market in which they operate.
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by gesso »

Ive just spent the best part of an hour trying to understand why things get to the state they do and that respect for all framers on here no matter what role they play and at what ever level , to have it all wiped at the click of the wrong button on my effin laptop! arrh well such is life. thanks for a great forum but your post is a bit ambiguous esp for a moderator . thats the internet for you. Never have happend in my day!
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Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

James Miller wrote:Thank you, Osgood, for breaching the topic this time. And to you as well, Robo, for taking the heat.
I thrive on it Jim - unfortunately though, Ormond threw his Teddy out of his pram and has gone - (bet he comes back one day though) The term 'conservation police' and other things, really got on his tits and he is a man of princnipples.

I still don't like this outgassing forum - and stepping outside of my body and trying to put a new framer head on - I wonder how I'd take it. How many newbies have posted preservation issues here anyway?

I'd take it as a specialist field - something to stay clear of until I have learned more - just look at hints and tips and gen discussions at the mo' - plenty going on regards conservation framing - it's part and parcel; doesn't need a separate forum.

This is the only UK Framing forum and anyone joining, or looking, sees that we see conservation framing as a thing apart from day to day stuff. But most framers in other countries, and maybe most here too, don't see it as a seperate part of their day to day business.

I see it as a protest.
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Moglet »

Choose your market.

Educate yourself to serve your target market, but have an awareness of other framing possibilities nonetheless: you never know when they might come in handy!

To thine own market be true (but have an eye towards future markets and expansion thereinto).

If offering conservation methods and materials, take time to explain their importance. If the customer cares enough, and has the necessary foldinng, then bingo! Best result!! If the customer doesn't want to go that far, use your product knowledge to choose the "least harmful" of options within the customer's budget, ladelled with appropriate "caveats". One can do no more.

In honesty, it can be intimidating here as a newling to have a highly experienced framer "drop a ton of conservation bricks" on one's post (love mixing metaphors ;) ), but sometimes it can be counterproductive.

If I hadn't taken time to read a lot of backposts before my early postings, and consequently got a "feel for the place" in general, and also had not been so very keen to learn and better my craft - and had felt so overjoyed and blessed (!) to find such experts willing to give their time so freely and willingly to teach myself and others lke me - one of the earliest responses I received to a question I posed felt like such a slap in the cyberface that my immediate instinct was to feel very hurt, and to run for the hills, Moggy tail well and truly stuck between hindquarters. I'm very grateful that I was at school the day they did Chutzpah 101, that I have had enough experience of the sometimes deleterious effects that cybmercommunication has on intended meaning so that I could make allowances for possible misunderstandings, and that my desire to learn was so strong that I stuck it out. I'm glad to have been a "fool that rushed in", but I think that also among our community of lurkers, there may be angels (with a lot to contribute) who are fearful to tread.

I'm very glad I didn't run away. I would have been the loser.

Witiin our industry there is a place for museum, and a place for manky budget stuff. Both are there to meet different customer needs. It is up to individual framing businesses to choose the market sector whose needs they wish to fulfill. Their customer offer (including the materials and techniques they elect to utilise in meeting those customer needs) should be structured accordingly.

Sometimes the 'best way' isn't the "right way" for a given circumstance.

And I support John Mc's comment that the Forum would best serve framers where both high and low-end, high-street, or garage, or hobby framer can all contribute and learn with equal comfort and ease. We may all be in the same "game", but there are many, many ways of playing it. And I, for one, think that we can be inspired and enlightened by learning how people in different outfits tackle different challenges: business, technical, artistic; they all enrich.

My two penn'orth. :?
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Keadyart »

Moglet wrote:
My two penn'orth. :?
worth a few bob at least, :clap:
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Mary Evans »

Roboframer wrote:
"Here's a copy and paste from the FATG's website on glass for their 'museum level' of framing .....

"Preferably museum-quality glazing should be used, ie glazing that blocks more than 90 per cent of all UV rays"

"Preferably" eh?

Take the FATG's two top levels to TFG and oh how they (we) will laugh.

PS - can we have a Guild Bashing forum and also a 'who gives one' type of forum - ya know, as an extreme to this one, with the general discussion forum for the stuff imbetween."


Point taken, Roboframer. Personally I agree with you that the Museum Level framing guidelines could have the word "preferably" removed. I'll bring it up at the next Framers Committee meeting.

Mary Evans

PS Is Guild Bashing a sport?
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Moglet »

Mary Evans wrote:PS Is Guild Bashing a sport?
Dig around in here, Mary, and I think you'll come up with enough material to potentially justify it as a 2012 Olympic event... ;)

That said, I think the underlying message from this, and previous discussions, is that caring framers would dearly love to be part of a reputable trade organisation that understands framers and their work/business issues/marketing needs at real grass-roots level. I think it 's fairly self-evident the esteem in which the GCF training programme and qualification are held, but to me it feels that many of us would dearly love to be affiliated with a larger organisation that is interested in helping framers to achieve recognition for their skills among a broader, customer audience, and to be represented by an organisation that promotes and markets good framing practice to Joe Normal in the streets. Most of all, my feeling is that many of us want to be part of a trade association that cares about, and promotes the interests of, the small operator. so many of whom have a great customer offer, and have so much to offer the people who want to find reputable artisans to carry out their framing work.

One item I find to be tinged with irony is the - apparent - obsession the Guild seems to have with who can, and who cannot, display the GCF logo. I know of at least two well-established framing businesses in my corner of the world who proudly annouce their FATG membership status, but the work they produce does not conform to recommended Guild Practices. In my considered opinion, allowing people who are willing to pay a mere subscription in order to associate themselves with the Guild are allowed to display the Guild logo "willy nilly", whereas many GCFs who choose not to renew their membership subscription are denied the use of the appropriate guild logo. Call me old-fashioned, but I think this approach is counterproductive to increasing customer awareness of what it means to be a GCF: after all these are the people who have given demonstrable proof of their framing skiils. I think it is very wrong on the part of the FATG to have made a beaureaucratic decision to deny them what should be an ineffable right to display the "stamp" of their hard won qualifications.

This "logo-no logo" position does not personally instill me with great confidence in the FATG as an organisation proporting to assist framers in the marketing, and the gaining of recognition for, their skills. Also, from a pure corporate marketing perspective, logos are pivotal elements of creating "brand awareness" among target demographical groups. All the big corporate guns (from my own direct experience) invest millions upon millions in the design of their logos, and advertise them ad nauseam, so that they will bury themselves in the psyche of prospective customers. The more places their logos appear (in suitable envirnoments, and associated with "brand healthy" activities and environments), the happier campers they are. The greater the exposure to their logos/slogans, the greater the likelihood that a potential customer is likely to think of them first when they want to part with their hard-earned. Ergo, from a marketing standpoint, the more FATG/GCF logos a customer gets to see will reinforce their awareness of the fact that there is a guild for the framing and art trade, and they may even, over time, get to the stage where they might even look for it.

With regard to "out of date" FATG membership stickers being displayed, they have the year displayed on them. By virtue of that fact, a framer displaying an "FATG 2007" membership logo is not, in effect, making any false claims merely by displaying it. By his leaving it on display, I personally think that he is doing the guild a favour by keeping the "corporate branding" visible in his store.

I think the overall general "logo" situation needs to be revisited, from a pragmatic "brand awareness" viewpoint, instead of a beaurocratic one.

That said, I am of a very strong opinion that anyone who has gone through the rigours of achieving GCF certification should be given indefinite rights to use the GCF logo as part of their marketing mix: through their skill they have earned the right. And in all candour, I consider it extremely petty for the guild to allow guild commended framers to use the initials GCF after their name, but not display the logo if their membership has expired. It does not speak well to me of an organisation that I once considered joining, but whom I found subsequently too interested in "chapter and verse" archaic protocols (IMO) to the detriment of the people they purport to represent.

As for Kev's experience (discussed elsewhere on the forum), the behaviour of the FATG in that particular case I thought was exceptionally dishonourable. I had considered taking out FATG membership, but when I found out that the FATG had:

1- been the weak link that caused his membership to accidentally lapse (through an uncollected Direct Debit); and
2 - subsequently became active in moves to prosecute his business for what was a de facto error on the part of the FATG...!

Suffice to say, such background information put any ideas I had of becoming a guild member well and truly to bed.

I've offered this post in a "constructive" spirit: so many of us are crying out for a Guild to represent us. Indeed, I believe that that is the underlying feeling behind many of the "less complimentary" comments about the Guild that have been posted here in the past. We don't want to bash the Guild. We want a Guild that cares about our interests, that wants to represent us within the art and framing world, and that wants to work to gain recognition among the public for the sterling, highly-skilled work that so many of us produce every day.

Mary, I think it's great that you have chosen to contribute to relevant discussions here. I hope it's the start of something better for the framing business as a whole. I am sure that any of your efforts to bring attention to the Guld about the concerns of we "small guys" will be warmly welcomed. :)
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
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Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

I RoboFramer hereby state that from hereon if I can not bash constructively I shalt not bash at all.

I'm glad you thought my comment on the 90% was constructive Mary, apologies for the sarcasm that accompanied it!

Really, for the 'Museum Level' though - and for 'conservation level' the guild should be recommending UV glass with the highest level available. That's 99% and at the mo' means TruVu museum or Connservation Clear.
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by James Miller »

Roboframer wrote:...the guild should be recommending UV glass with the highest level available. That's 99% and at the mo' means TruVu museum or Connservation Clear.
On this side of the pond we have broken rocks over such details in our published recommendations for preservation framing. You are quite right, for their conservation glass products Tru-Vue has tested to 99% UV filtering in the range of 300 to 380 nanometers.

However, we have not found an acrylic glazing product that exceeds 98%. The best we have is CYRO Acrylite. Tru-Vue's Museum Optium Acrylic is Acrylite OP-3-AR with the same optical coatings as Museum Glass, and we find it quite suitable for preservation framing where glass breakage could be an issue.

Is an acrylic glazing available that filters more than 98% of UV light? It may seem like splitting hairs, but we really ought to get it right for recommendations published, don't you agree?
Jim Miller
Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

Note to John.

2 Months.
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Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Newframer »

Almost 3 months now John, if i follow correctly!
markw

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by markw »

Roboframer wrote: Yep - and that's the name for the whole forum - well - it's 'The Picture Framers' Grumble' actually and 'The Grumble' is the main framing forum within; anything you need to know about TFG - I'm yer man as the senior member in The British Isles. Although there are other members of TFG here that joined waaaaaay before me - Ormond is one of the first registered Grumblers.
posting in volume doesn't make you an expert - it generally indicates that you waffle a lot.

Would have thought this particular subject had created enough hot air in the past. We all know Ormonds fairly narrow view, and by now accept that he will contemplate no other. Normal form will be that he will get upset by other less educated or informed opinions and we wont see him posting for a while.
Roboframer

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by Roboframer »

Posting in volume certainly does not make one an expert, but it's a safe assumption that anyone doing so is also listening a lot.

Don't know why you dragged all that up. To tempt more hot air?

I'd not judge anyone by what they put in B&W - I've not met Ormond but I have spoken to him and I don't agree with your take on him.

The only reason I've bumped this topic up - and not for 3 months anyway, is to point out it's uselesness - thanks for reinforcing my point!
markw

Re: Conservation Framers???

Post by markw »

Apologies John - I should be well aware that the majority of your posts show great wisdom. I was just being a bit mean.. :xcomputer:
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