Back to basics

Conservation Issues
kev@frames
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Re: Back to basics

Post by kev@frames »

One thing thats clear from this thread is the strength of feeling - genuine on both "sides" about the application of conservation methods and materials.

As we are all mostly professional framers (making all or a substantial part of our living from making frames) imho it makes this a general business issue.

When people complain that they are losing customers to the "big box" outlets in the US or UK, and you look at the frames available in big-box outlets, what they are actually saying is that customers are going to big-box outlets to buy standard size ready made frames with mdf backs instead of choosing to have something framed.

So if you dont or wont make standard size ready made frames with MDF backs, then you are not losing any business at all, because you dont cater for that customer anyway if you only do conservation grade materials and bespoke framing.

So if you are quite happy to ignore a large segment of the framing market (ready made with MDF backs) and concentrate on conservation bespoke framing only, then that is a business decision.

we sell a lot of ready made frames with MDF backs. we also sell a lot of custom-made (made to customers spec) frames with styrene glazing and MDF backs - exactly the stuff the big-box stores sell, but in custom sizes. We also do a lot of framing mostly with conservaton type materials, but we do not limit ourselves to using only conservation materials or adhering rigidly to conservation standards.

The big box stores are not pinching your customers, they are selling something you dont, thats all. The other side of the coin is that you are selling something that they dont, but there obviously isn't such a demand for framing as there is for buying frames.

Does this make a framer who does all types of framing a Jack of all trades (master of...... some/none) ? The opposite is a one trick pony.

Conservation is an interesting subject, and in general it gets you into good practices which carry over to non-conservation (cheap and cheerful/decorative market) - principles like do nothing you can't undo etc - but the cheap and cheerful/decorative/fashion segment of the market is a big chunk to ignore, and there is no reason why you cant do a good budget job with as much satisfaction, pride and profit as you can do a full on fur lined copper bottomed ocean going conservation job.

How much of it is ego, I wonder?

By coincidence today we shipped another order to a TV makeover show ...... "big box" type frames, to a custom made size. If we insisted on full-on conservation work only, we wouldn't regularly be doing jobs like that. Custom framing is not all about conservation. Conservation is just a part of it.
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John
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Re: Back to basics

Post by John »

Framer Dave wrote:Was that print of the park bench on the right always blue, or did it once have other colours?
On a south facing wall, opposite the window for 20 years, the print has experienced considerable light damage.

A replacement is long overdue. :)
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Framer Dave »

John wrote: On a south facing wall, opposite the window for 20 years, the print has experienced considerable light damage.

A replacement is long overdue. :)
Well there you go. A perfect argument for using more conservationally-minded materials and techniques, even on inexpensive art. Now granted, it may be simply a very inexpensive open edition print framed purely for decorative purposes, but obviously you like it enough to keep it around for twenty years. The extra cost of UV-filtering glass spread out over twenty years is quite minimal.

And yes, I do realize that UV-filtering glass was not easily available twenty years ago.
Roboframer

Re: Back to basics

Post by Roboframer »

Framer Dave wrote:
Well there you go. A perfect argument for using more conservationally-minded materials and techniques, even on inexpensive art. Now granted, it may be simply a very inexpensive open edition print framed purely for decorative purposes, but obviously you like it enough to keep it around for twenty years. The extra cost of UV-filtering glass spread out over twenty years is quite minimal.

And yes, I do realize that UV-filtering glass was not easily available twenty years ago.
Now put yourself in a customer's shoes - maybe not in this exact situation but anyway .....

The cost of the new print, plus the cost of your removal/refitting - plus the cost, if you are any good at your job, of anything up to a total re-frame - and now with UV glass so's you don't make the same mistake again.

Compared to the cost of that lite of UV glass.

Hear me bretheren, I have seeeeeen the light and it has faaaaaydid mah pitchers.
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Roboframer »

kev@frames wrote: we sell a lot of ready made frames with MDF backs ............
So do I - well, probably not as much as you; definitely not as much as Ikea or even my local garden (etc) centre - but most I would have bought in and most of those will be aluminium. Apart from that I make my own - mostly only up to about 16x12 or A3 - plus some long skinny ones with multiple apertures - offcuts - all offcuts - mounts all artcare - either that or the bin/local schools etc - backings artbak, 'acid free' foamboard, or artcare foamboard, whatever's kicking about - even MDF - who cares on a photo frame? - The 'photo's going to be against the glass anyway

but we do not limit ourselves to using only conservation materials or adhering rigidly to conservation standards.
Who does? (again) I've asked this about 3 or 4 times now - who does?

And anyway - when it comes to full, and I mean FULL - preservation standards/methods - and let's keep it simple - art on paper - how many framers in UK - using this forum as a % guide, use - for example - the best (which are definitely not the most expensive) hinges?

This will be the third time I've asked in less weeks. Many can say how they knock out decorative items - but no-one seems to want to share details of the other extreme, which most, if not all agree, has it's place.

Who cooks their own starch paste? If Lion do not sell it is that you buggered? Gummed linen/whatever tape - is that the best? (Here's a clue - NO!)
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John
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Re: Back to basics

Post by John »

Framer Dave wrote:Well there you go. A perfect argument for ...
Ah Framer Dave, you almost got me. For a moment there I thought that you were being serious.

You have a wicked sense of humour. :) :) :)
The Jolly Good Framer #1

Re: Back to basics

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

So what would you do?
Mrs Customer comes in to your shop and wants you to frame an odd size, inexpensive, open edition print.
She cant find a frame to fit it in B & Ikea Base, does not want a mount and is on a very limited budget (she wants it done as cheep as possible).

Would you insist on a conservation job? (and be far more expensive than she can afford)
Would you turn the work away? (and loose out on the profit)
Would you frame it as cheep as possible? (keeping the customer happy, framing it just how she wants it and forgetting about conservation)
osgood

Re: Back to basics

Post by osgood »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote: Would you insist on a conservation job? (and be far more expensive than she can afford)
Definitely not!
The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:Would you turn the work away? (and loose out on the profit)
I would lose the job if the customer won't pay my lowest price. That happens sometimes!
The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:Would you frame it as cheep as possible? (keeping the customer happy, framing it just how she wants it and forgetting about conservation)
I would frame it as cheaply as I could! I would use a self adhesive foamboard as backing and a budget frame that looks good and I would use either clear glass or get the print matt laminated before mounting it, customers choice on that.

Your questions seem to indicate that you believe that some framers only do preservation framing??? There may be some that do that, somewhere, but not the general custom/bespoke framer. Others also give the impression that they have the same opinion.

As John said in his initial post on this topic "Conservation framing is a fascinating topic.", but it is only one of many topics in the custom/bespoke framing world. It would be great if everyone would remember that!
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prospero
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Re: Back to basics

Post by prospero »

Surely the mark of a good framer is having the knowledge to judge just what is required for each job. After all, the range of items that people want framing covers a wide area. Some will demand the highest standards, some will be be quite acceptable with glass/back+four bits of wood.

I always try to accomodate the customers ideas, but sometimes the practicalities conflict. A typical example is when they want a very narrow mount. This may look fine on an aeshetic level but would not allow movement of the artwork. It can be difficult to get them to understand the implications. Personally I would not take on any job where I am forced to do anything that I know would be detrimental. It's a matter of professional ethics.

If they want a cowboy job they can take it to Bronco Billy down the road. :P
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Re: Back to basics

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

What is the science about MDF?
Ok so we know MDF contains acid, and art work will be damaged if it is in contact with MDF for a period of time. We have all seen what can happen when we have taken apart old frames.

We also know that the MDF will ‘Outgas’, but how much?
What is the gas that it produces? How much of that gas is needed to damage the artwork and for how long? Has anyone done any scientific tests? Not just anecdotal evidence.

I always used to wash an orange before I would eat it because they are sprayed with a preserver. The preserver used is poisonous so to avoid being killed I washed oranges first. Last year a professor told me that to have any ill effects from the poisonous preserver I would have to eat a wheel barrow full of oranges including the peel. That is a scientific fact. (I don’t bother washing them any more).

So what are the scientific facts about MDF?
How long would the outgassing take to damage the artwork? 1 Day? 1 Year? 100 Years? 100,000 Years?

And what do we know about MDF alternatives? Do they ‘Outgas’? No? can you be 100% sure of that?

I’m a firm believer in knowing all the facts before making an informed decision, so I’m not asking these questions just to be awkward or to fuel a debate, I don’t know the answers and would like to know.
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prospero
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Re: Back to basics

Post by prospero »

Good point. :D

Has anyone considered that foamcore is made by mixing a blowing agent into the plastic which gives off a gas when heated and forms the cavities. From what I have read this gas is very nasty stuff. How much of it remains in the foam to seep out over time?

There are very few substances that are totally inert. If any. :?
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Roboframer

Re: Back to basics

Post by Roboframer »

prospero wrote:
Has anyone considered that foamcore is made by mixing a blowing agent into the plastic which gives off a gas when heated and forms the cavities. From what I have read this gas is very nasty stuff. How much of it remains in the foam to seep out over time?
None - that's why gas comes in sealed metal containers.
Roboframer

Re: Back to basics

Post by Roboframer »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:So what would you do?
Mrs Customer comes in to your shop and wants you to frame an odd size, inexpensive, open edition print.
She cant find a frame to fit it in B & Ikea Base, does not want a mount and is on a very limited budget (she wants it done as cheep as possible).
An every day situation - and today I lost that job and here's why.

The print had a paper margin that the customer did not want to see - (otherwise she could have got that Ikea frame - the paper size was 50x40cm - I also had a few she could have chosen from) so I have to trim it then?

I suggested covering that margin with a wider double mount; showed her something of a similar size on my wall done the same and in the sort of moulding she was thinking of.

"Oooh - that looks nice - how much?"

"£X"

"Oh - far more than I want to spend"

So then I placed the corner sample next to the image, gave her the price for that - which was about what she was thinking of but then agreed that, compared to my example, looked like carp and went away to 'think about it'

Had I just said "Sure - we can trim that - pick your moulding" - I'd have one more job this week.
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Bill Henry »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote: We also know that the MDF will ‘Outgas’, but how much?
What is the gas that it produces? How much of that gas is needed to damage the artwork and for how long? Has anyone done any scientific tests? Not just anecdotal evidence.
I can’t give you any concrete facts about longevity, but MDF contains formaldehyde. Formaldehyde has been linked to cancer, birth defects, and the fall of the Byzantine Empire.

We generally don’t deal with MDF, but we do use “Gatorboard” which has a thin surface of what I believe is MDF surrounding compressed foam material. For the first three or four days in the shop Gatorboard gives me a blinding headache if I can’t open the doors and windows.
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Re: Back to basics

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

Am I right in saying that formaldehyde is a preservative?
osgood

Re: Back to basics

Post by osgood »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:Am I right in saying that formaldehyde is a preservative?
It apparently is a preservative and is also contained in the resins that bind the particles together in many pressed wood products.

Question 4 in this document is particularly interesting. http://tinyurl.com/4s4rk9

I personally know someone who was in the kitchen cabinet making industry, who became extremely unwell from using MDF and other particle boards. It took a number of years to determine the cause, but within a few months of him ceasing contact with those products, most of his symptoms disappeared. However he has been permanently affected!

Apparently some people are more susceptible than others.

I prefer not to be in contact with those products on a daily basis!
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Frame Faery »

:clap:
I'm with RoboFramer on this one . . .
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Framer Dave
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Framer Dave »

John wrote:Ah Framer Dave, you almost got me. For a moment there I thought that you were being serious.

You have a wicked sense of humour. :) :) :)
Well thank you, I have been told I have a very good sense of humour. Quite dry and British.

But I wasn't joking on this one. Conservation glass on that piece would have helped preserve it in much better condition and you'd probably be able to see some colour in it other than blue. And I'm sure that someone will point out that the print only cost a few quid. So what? Obviously the customer cares something about it if it's being framed, and likes it enough to keep it on the wall for twenty years. I would have specified conservation glass on it as a default and switched to regular only if it was an issue. But one way or another it would have been presented as an option. I'm not going to make less money on a job by judging what's worthy of preserving and what's not.

I usually try to stay far away from this sort of discussion. It usually devolves into two extremes: Museum level framing on everything vs. MDF on everything because customers won't pay for anything better. I happen to think that there is a lot of middle ground that gets ignored.
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Re: Back to basics

Post by John »

Framer Dave, it seems that I was wrong about your sense of humour. I’m sure you are a great guy, and no doubt hilarious in the flesh, but you have just perfectly illustrated the reason why I have a problem with the conservation cops.

They create a ‘them and us’ schism that is totally unnecessary, and which I find regrettable.

To state ‘Conservation glass on that piece would have helped preserve it in much better condition and you'd probably be able to see some colour in it other than blue’ in the context of all that had been previously said in this thread demonstrates an insensitivity that is truly staggering, and does not add in any way to the dialogue. I fail to see how pointing out obvious facts such as these, to intelligent and very experienced framers can move the discussion forward. It is clear in this particular case, that both the savvy framer, and the clued in customer are not in the least bothered by the light damage to this cheap print, hung with full knowledge of the consequences, in an exposed location, in the path of direct sunlight, but it seems to bother you. Why? (Not a rhetorical question, by the way, I would dearly like to know.)

Unlike the real police, the conservation police seem unable to concede the possibility of a victimless crime, instead, are always compelled to wade in, a bit like the holier-than-thou evangelists bringing enlightenment to the heathen savage.

As many on the forum already know, my purpose in starting this thread, and for the rather silly addition to my signature, is not intended to be confrontational, it is an attempt to make the forum more inclusive. To let potential new members know that they are welcome here, can make themselves at home, and can speak their mind without let or hindrance even if they do not aspire to the standards of some of the rest of us. And while they may not necessarily be able to teach us anything with regard to conservation framing, they might, even so, have a great contribution to make, one that embiggens us all.
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Re: Back to basics

Post by Merlin »

John, when you framed that image 20 some years ago, did they have this magical conservation glass around.

I ask because I was not a picture framer then. In fact only 10 years ago when I started, that type of glass was very few and far between and even then VERY expensive.

Likewise, the backing; from the frames that we get in of that era, I would say that 80% of them have MDF as the backing, the rest have oily hardboard and some even have slats of 'boxwood'.

Of the MDF backings nearly all of them are in good condition. It is the mounts that is causing the problem.

You framed with what was available at that time and to have stood up to the environment they are in seems not too bad a return.
John GCF
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