The Cost Of Conservation

Conservation Issues
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The Jolly Good Framer #1

The Cost Of Conservation

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

It seems to me that the reason that framers don’t use conservation materials is down to the cost of the materials. After all if conservation materials were the same price as standard materials then everyone would use them.

So just out of curiosity I have worked out the difference in cost between using conservation materials and non-conservation materials.

So here are the details:-
I have priced it on a 16"x20" frame size (glass size), glass, single mount, backing. The conservation frame will have an under-mount where the standard has no under-mount.
The prices are just the catalogues list prices – with out any discounts, purely just to have a fair comparison. All include the VAT.

Standard materials
Normal 2mm float glass
2mm MDF board
Daler Standard mount board

Conservation materials
Tru Vue Conservation Clear
Art-Bak Conservation
Daler Conservation Pro (mount and under-mount)

________Standard____Conservation
Glass_____0.92_________3.68
Backing___0.28_________0.57
Mount____0.78_________2.18

Total_____1.98_________6.43

Using conservation materials would cost an extra £4.45.
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Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Spit »

Add your profit margin onto that and the difference becomes greater. It's not so much the cost to us that is the problem, it's the customers who groan about it.
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Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

I think your comparisons are too extreme.
The Jolly Good Framer #1

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

Roboframer wrote:I think your comparisons are too extreme.
Explain more.
Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote: Explain more.
OK - too extreme is what I think your comparisons are.
The Jolly Good Framer #1

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

I’m glad we have cleared that up.
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Merlin
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Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Merlin »

Roboframer wrote: OK - too extreme is what I think your comparisons are.
John, I do not wish to be confrontational. I think that the question from JGF#1 was a fair question. Your reply puzzled me as well.
If I was one of your students and I asked for a more detailed explanation from you and you replied with that blunt statement and nothing else, then I would not be at all impressed.

On another Forum you use an acronym of E.D.I.P. as your instructional base from your experience. So could you please E - Explain. D - Demonstrate. Impart your knowledge as to why.

Thank you
John GCF
markw

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by markw »

JGF - its an interesting topic - and worthy of some serious debate.

I came to the conclusion that it cost me little more to use high quality materials. In fairness to many manufacturers / distributors they have upped the quality of materials at very little extra cost. The exception to that rule seems to be glass and as such conservation glass wouldn't be my standard offering and therefore makes your comparison even more attractive.
Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote: Explain more.
OK, this time I will, I just hoped someone would say what I meant and MarkW did, partly.

It's a no-brainer that the cheapest (nastiest?) materials will cost far far less than the best.

But a more realistic comparison would be between most framers' default for custom work and a full conservation job.

I'm sure from what I've read on here over the years that most framers' default for custom/bespoke work is way above standard board, as in the stuff that goes brown, and MDF with no undermount, that's what the conservation robbers :giggle: use. I'd say that that default would be some sort of whitcore board, an undermount of similar quality and then a backing of MDF or corricor/artbak type board.

The upgrade in boards from that is minimal in cost - but not the glass. For that 20x16 I'd charge £17* for CC as opposed to £4:84 for standard 2mm. (IOW customer pays £12:16*) BUT, I'd not need to upgrade anything else, nor would many others, well not anything mentioned, some different hinges, some foil tape to seal the glass and a bit more time.

*This will increase after my next glass order.
Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:
Conservation materials
Tru Vue Conservation Clear
Art-Bak Conservation
Daler Conservation Pro (mount and under-mount)

________Standard____Conservation
Glass_____0.92_________3.68
Backing___0.28_________0.57
Mount____0.78_________2.18

Total_____1.98_________6.43

Using conservation materials would cost an extra £4.45.
An alphamat artcare mount+undermount would cost £2:30 incl VAT, so, 12p more. BUT, if you used an alphamat artcare mount + 5mm artcare foamboard as a combined undermount and backing board, it would cost less AND you wouldn't need the Art-Bak.

There are discounts to be had/earned too but you can't deal with Daler or whoever makes ArtBak direct (I don't think) but you can deal with Nielsen and Arqadia direct, so I'd say you could get very good or better quality for a lot lot less.

Museum glass would add just under £60 to that job here. (retail inc VAT)
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Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by kev@frames »

Using better (more expensive?) materials doesn't necessarily make the end price prohibitive. eg. making your baseline acid-free/conservation boards, undermounts and backings, and offering UV protective glass as an option. "Raising the game",

it does all add up at the end of the year though - one way or another.

we found it adds up in better quality orders (higher end work), happier customers, fewer returns/complaints, more repeats, and better staff satisfaction, plus a better reputation.

A win-win situation all round, for very little extra hassle or cost.

as a comment we always put undermounts in "standard" jobs as well. In fact i would risk saying that most jobs we do would have been considered "museum" by ten years ago on-the-street framing standards.

Then again maybe this just reflects general quality improvements in all consumer goods and services over the same period?

Customers are more discerning these days.

Art Bak, for example, is considerably cheaper than MDF. Offcut mountboard for undermounts is considerably cheaper than standard mount board cut from new sheets.

Its a bonus that mostof the jobs lean towards a "conservation" spec. But as I said in an earlier post its a business decision, not any great crusade towards conservation, in our case.
The Jolly Good Framer #1

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

Ok, ok, So this is what I will do when I get to work in the morning.
I will re-do the ‘standard’ costing with a white core mount and undermount.

But remember don’t get bogged down with what type of conservation board I have used in this example, that’s not the point. The point is a fair, level playing field comparison.

Also I would say most of us don’t pay the catalogue price for the materials, as we negotiate a better price / buy in bigger quantities, again that’s not the point here. The difference could be expressed as a % value.

Also (again) I have not taken in to consideration wastage. For example if you waste (just of the top of my head) 15% of a sheet of glass the wastage cost of CC is going to be a lot more than the normal glass.

Also (again, again) the method of hinging the artwork is neither here nor there as a nice long strip of masking tape right around all 4 sides of the artwork is going to cost more that a conservation method.

(John (Robo), I was hoping that when you said it was too extreme you meant that I was doing it while bungee jumping. base jumping or white water rafting!) :rock: :giggle:
Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

The Jolly Good Framer #1 wrote:
(John (Robo), I was hoping that when you said it was too extreme you meant that I was doing it while bungee jumping. base jumping or white water rafting!) :rock: :giggle:
You name it, I'll play it!


Roboframer

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by Roboframer »

This is all about costing - it could be about high end mouldings it could be about suppliers - conservation isn't the issue here at all - materials are. I could be mounting everything on to MDF with standard board around but framing all that in water gilded frames priced by the centimetre.

This is a business issue and is in the wrong forum. Just an observation.

Deal with a moulding supplier that is up to 40% cheaper, like for like, than AN Other very popular supplier. Gain a 20% discount from that (first) supplier but base your retail prices on the second supplier's and the bit you base your prices on is suddenly 60% less and the frame components, however good, become far less of an issue. Use at least two mountboard suppliers I can think of and you have no choice but to use conservation board as a default - they dropped standard stuff donkeys ago.

Conservation framing really is no big deal and I disagree with your first post - it's not so much cost, it's more ignorance.
The Jolly Good Framer #1

Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by The Jolly Good Framer #1 »

As promised new figures using white core mount with an undermount.

Standard materials
Normal 2mm float glass
2mm MDF board
Daler White Core mount board (mount and under-mount)

Conservation materials
Tru Vue Conservation Clear
Art-Bak Conservation
Daler Conservation Pro (mount and under-mount)

________Standard____Conservation
Glass_____0.92_________3.68
Backing___0.28_________0.57
Mount____1.84_________2.18

Total_____3.04_________6.43

Using conservation materials would cost an extra £3.39
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Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by kev@frames »

As John (Robo) above says this is really a business issue (costing) rather than a conservation issue, it does seem to have drifted that way, and I hold my hands up and step into the spotlight for steering it that way.

On the other hand, if its served to show people new to the business away from the misconception that better or conservation type materials do not eat into your bottom line, and dont always end up prohibitie cost-wise for customers. It also illustrates that whichever materials you are using, you can stick to good framing practices.

It also illustrates that conservation and "budget" framing can go hand in hand.

All in all, a worthwhile thread, i think.

One thing that struck me more than anything else about conservation techniques and materials is that because these change over time, it would be a perfect candidate for a Wiki entry.

But does anyone feel reluctant, like me, to post "how to" articles in the wiki for fear of being "shot down"?

Surely between us we can jointly edit a basic entry about conservation framing, even if its a list of What-Not-To-Dos.....
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Re: The Cost Of Conservation

Post by gesso »

Individual Costing's aside surely it's all about what you want and what work you want to do.
You cant not use conservation materials just because of cost your either a conservation framer or your not

like being a bit pregnant

instance~

Framer A bog standard framing options open to them ~ bog standard framing

Framer B Conservation framing options open to them ~ Conservation framing & bog standard framing

If you cant see the benefits in a higher standard of framing then it's just as well you don't go down that route
as there's more required than just small additional costs.
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