How much does the best cost?

Conservation Issues
Roboframer

How much does the best cost?

Post by Roboframer »

I compared some products from the PEL (non-framing) catalogue to the Lion (Framing) catalogue today.

In no way am I putting supplier against supplier here - just that no other framinng supplier offers the amount of conservation quality products in the UK as Lion, and most that offer some of the same stuff that Lion does, are far dearer. Different products anyway. .........

Two pure kozo papers I use from PEL are 'Sekishu Kozogami' 22 gsm - @ £16:80 per sq m and 'Kizukishi' 11-12 gsm @ £21.88 per sq m - yes - lighter but more expensive. (It's not priced per sq m - it's sold per 5 sheets but I did the maths)

You score and wet tear it to make feathered edges and then freshly cooked wheatstarch paste is applied - but only on the very ends of the bits in contact with the artwork.

How does that compare then?

Well - filmoplast P-90+ is only £8,44 per sq m (That's the price of the box, it contains exactly one sq m)

BUT - it's only classed, by Lion, as FATG level 2 - 'conservation' - which I have several isues with anyway, which I won't go in to for now, bar to say that there is no such thing as a truly PRESERVATION quality TAPE - not for direct contact with artwork - it's a contradiction of terms IMHO.

So scrub FP90 - let's also scrub 'hinging delight' which is only FATG level 3 (standard) @ £23.10 per sq m.

Let's compare the above to Lion's (FATG) level 1 tapes 'Museum' - see above for issues I have with FATG terms/levels.

Well, there is 'Rag hinging tape' @ £14.13 per sq metre (again it's not priced that way) OK - it's cheaper, but it's not feathered and the adhesive is water activated - and therefore must contain some sort of chemical/stabiliser/whatever - it's convenience. The carrier is cotton.

Then there is Hayaku @ £24.13 per sq m. - Here's some of the spec ........

"Mulberry paper with an acid-free water activated gum adhesive. Soft and pliable yet very strong, with pre-torn edges.

Paper is acid-free, lignin free and buffered to pH 8.5. Adhesive is acid-free polymer and reversible with water"

Not pure Kozo - there is woodpulp in it - it requires a buffer, which has a shelf life and again water activated adhesive which contains nylon - and again not feathered. A convenience product that does not compare.

Ah - BUT - you have to add starch paste to make the good stuff work - and freshly cooked is the best - and, of course, if you wanna do a dog's whotsit's job, you want 'the best'?

OK, well you can buy 'Zen' ready-to-use wheat starch paste granules' @ £17.90 for 28 gms from Lion.

You just add water.

OR - you could buy 90 gms of 'Jin Shofu' wheat starch paste powder which you'd have to cook @ - £27.94. From PEL.

The actual (trade) cost that the best from the above selection, (which, unless you have not worked it out yet, is not the most expensive), that would need to be added to a framing job is peanuts - we're talking fractions of a sq metre per job. But just a bit of time - and a tiny tiny bit of time if you batch your work - which of course, should be charged for if you do or not.

It's about skill, experience and product knowledge - not money.
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Roboframer »

I forgot to mention the dearest stuff - which is still only level 2 - it's self adhesive and works out at £38.20 per sq m

http://www.lionpic.co.uk/Catalog/Produc ... earch=1584
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

Robo,
Good Comparison interesting facts.

MITREMAN :D
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Roboframer »

What about mountboard?

What's the best - Cotton?

Nope!

If you subscribe to Picture Framing Magazine there's an article this month by Jim Miller entitled (something like) 'The myths of 'acid free' ..."

The best mountboard is made from high quality alpha cellulose. There is wood alpha cellulose and there is cotton alpha cellulose - both are truly free of acid - it's just that the wood pulp takes longer to process.

This news is not new news; not in the USA - yet, according to the FATG and lots of, if not all educators here - cotton is the best. It will cost more but offers no better protection than boards made from wood alpha cellulose.

I'll use cotton - sure - but mainly for the colour of the core and/or its better ability to take a colour wash.
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

Hi Robo,
Going to have read.

MITREMAN :D

I HATE ACID :evil:
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Roboframer »

Here's the article - you lucky people!

And here's a grumble topic on it, with feedback from the author (Some Brit frankenthreaded it though and it's all about marmite on the last couple of pages!)
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Moglet »

Wasn't me, guv! :o
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by WelshFramer »

Roboframer wrote:Here's the article - you lucky people!
Problem is it says "In 15 years the buffer has become exhausted and no longer provides adequate protection from acid burn" so, of course, it's only valid for mountboard made 15 years ago. Manufacturers will, of course, tell us that their mountboards have improved in those years.

Now, if we were to take a piece of today's mountboard and publish pictures of it in 15 years time mountboard manufacturers would tell us that they had improved their mountboards over that period.

Anyway, I hope to be retired in 15 years time. :D
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

You either love it or hate
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

Yes..... more interesting facts and terms to learn

http://www.artfacts.org/standards/in_pd ... b_2000.pdf

MITREMAN :)
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by prospero »

Just disassembled two l/e prints for de-flying. Both framed about 20 years ago. In light of this discussion I took a mo to examine the effects of the mounting during that period.
Both similar type of print quality.

First one I did myself. Mount - Alphamat. Bevels still white. No sign of acid burn on the print around window edge. :)

Second one done elseware. Mount - indeterminate brand, but definately std quality judging by the brown bevels. Backed directly onto the print with greyboard. The printed border had faded slightly. Par for the course on this type of print. But no sign of acid migration. :wink:

The second mount looked a bit tatty and will be replaced. But cometic aspects aside, the nasty mounting materials hadn't actually damaged the print to any extent. If it were not for the masking tape "hinging", the print would be is as near mint condition as any similar framed from this period.

In my exp, acid burned art occurres mainly in pre 1980ish mounts. It was around this time that the industry seemed to become 'preservation aware' and whitecore board started appearing on the market. Of course rag board had long been available, but very few high-street framers actually used it. Mainly the preserve (no pun intended) of museums and such institutions. The std quality board startled being 'buffered' to neutralise to acid content.


Anyway, a living example. Make of it what you will. :roll:
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by MITREMAN »

Good points prospero,

Masking tape again :head:

How many framers use It?

My Conclusion

It seems in the future that again framers in UK may follow the USA and replace acid-free mountboards with a larger stock of Alpha cellulose boards.

On my understanding boards with the addition of zeolites offer extra protection that other alphacellulose or rag products cannot and for maximum protection they may be a better option.

So it seems ArtCare is the ONLY board available in the world today with Zeolites,

I stand to be corrected?

Zeolites at present is under patent in mountboard when this patent runs out I expect we will find it available in other supplies boards in the future.

But here or the forum we now know the facts,

Thank you, Robo for bringing up these subjects. :yes:

We know what is best we have the choice to use it or not and learn to market it.

See the last page 48

http://www.pictureframingmagazine.com/p ... 9_Acid.pdf

Small cost Difference.

MITREMAN 8)

Acid Rain... Acid rain..... :grahame:
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by WelshFramer »

Not sure exactly when this one was done but it was less than 18 years ago. We had it framed after we had moved in 1991.

http://www.welshframing.com/framing/mountqual.html
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by WelshFramer »

Not sure exactly when this one was done but it was less than 18 years ago. We had it framed after we had moved in 1991.

http://www.welshframing.com/framing/mountqual.html

I didn't really mean to be that emphatic! No idea why it posted twice. Is there a way of deleting this one?
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by prospero »

One factor that we tend to overlook in all this is the paper on the artwork itself. How acidic is this? Does the chemistry of the paper make it more vunerable to acid damage? It may be the case where the art is damaging the mounts in some instances. :P

Take Mike's Lion etching. Etching paper is soft (and thoroughly absorbent. :wink: ). I would think it very liable to suck in any nasty stuff in it's vicinity. Same applies to most watercolour and drawing paper. On the other hand, your typical offset-litho print tends to be on harder stuff and slightly glossy. Maybe they are more bullet proof?
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Roboframer »

My main reason for this topic is cost; not long term effects of good/not so good boards. A cotton board will, or should, cost more than a wood alpha cellulose board but offers no better protection. In fact a wood alpha cellulose board with zeolites (Nielsen-Bainbridge artcare for now) offers better protection.
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by prospero »

Point taken Robo. :D

I suppose when you weigh it all up, the difference in cost between using quality materials and techniques and the cheapest possible with all corners cut doesn't amount to a great deal on a single job. But it does allow you to charge more with a clear consience. :wink:

(That's taking glass out of the equation.)
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Re: How much does the best cost?

Post by Moglet »

prospero wrote:..the difference in cost between using quality materials and techniques and the cheapest possible with all corners cut doesn't amount to a great deal on a single job. But it does allow you to charge more with a clear consience.
Being well educated about "best practice" gives us as framers the opportunity to demonstrate to our customers that we know what we're about, that our craft is highly skilled, and it also provides us with an opportunity to show that we genuinely care about the work we do for them, and that we want to aid them in making informed choices about their framing. It also goes some way towards helping them to understand why we charge what we charge, and enables us to differentiate ourselves from framers who choose to offer "cheap and cheerful" framing solutions by default.

In the current economic situation, what is sustaining my business is a relatively steady flow of repeat and referral custom. Not only are repeat customers coming back, they are - in the main - choosing to compensate me for my work without any quibbles about price. I believe that that, by virtue of treating the work they have brought to me in the past with the consideration it deserves, they recognise that - even though I'm not the 'cheapest' place to get things framed - I do provide true value for their money. I also believe that If I had chosen to worship at the altar of the Almighty Dollar in order to save a yoyo here and there in the past, that my business would be really suffering now.

Indeed, regardless of saving the odd buck or two when it comes to choice of materials for mounting/hinging, it pales into insignificance when I consider the cost of the time I invest at the design desk, and also the time I take over the finish I put on my frames. I think the time investment means more to my customers, since the level of service I provide is more immediately tangible to them than discovering brown marks when they choose to reframe their artwork 10 or 15 years from now. I think that because I take the time over design and finish reassures my customers that all the things they can't see are done properly.

This is an excellent topic. I hope that it will enable newcomers to the framing business who read it to learn that "best practice" need not add a huge amount to the materials cost of producing properly-framed work, and the relatively small amount of time taken to inform customers about the choices available to them in the early days of the business relationship - in terms of materials, but even more importantly, in exactly what different services framers offer - can and does pay dividends in the mid-to-long term.
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