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Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:30 pm
by Not your average framer
If these tiles are fired, then they would be made from clay and there is no reason to expect the acetic acid released from the silicone to cause any significant degree of damage at all.

Of course, if the surface of the tile is porous, then the could be reversiblity issues if the silicone was required to be fully removable, due any silcone remaining within the porous features of the tile surface.

I think that I would probably re-frame this, without any concern about doing so.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:45 pm
by Roboframer
JohnMcafee wrote:Sorry Roboframer, the convoluted points in this thread, such as using silicon instead of door hinges, or something, has confused my simple mind to the point where I'm not sure whether or not you are sticking (so to speak) to the notion that your photos demonstrate that silicone can eat away the glazing of a tile.

Can you clear that one up please?


and I'm not sure why you, when something looks like it's steering towards conservation or defying blinkered and archiac beliefs and methods go in to sarcasm and the ins and outs of a cat's arsehole and turn something simple in to something not so.

It is simple, it failed, that's the topic heading, and as a PS the surface has been affected, before or after having the glaze removed or whether there was any soddin' glaze there in the first place - my photos don't demonstrate it because you can't feel anything - I can and I'm telling you what I've found - ignore it, beware of it, whatever - I'm past caring now.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:53 pm
by Graysalchemy
So what is the conclusion then?

Did it have a knock and separate from the backing board (looks likely from the torn board)?

And was the 'damage' in actual fact there in the first place due to manufacture?

I know Silicon is not particularly liked in certain circles but perhaps a scape goat has been made here.

Personally I don't give a monkeys either and I will continue to use silicon for low value commercial bric a brac jobs.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:21 pm
by stcstc
Slipped tile - silicone

Postby Roboframer » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:49 pm
This came in for re-framing, the silicone had failed, or the backing had, or both.

You can see that not only has the glaze been eaten away but there is a serious dip in each corner. There is mountboard facing paper stuck to the silicone, but no tile material, that's just been eaten away by this 'orrible muck!


Actually robo

your main point seemed to be about the silicone eating the tile, or as you called it orrible muck

but you have had responses from various people with reasoned argument that suggests it might be another reason why the corners are how they are. including luoise who's explanation seems like a very valid one from a knowledgable source

and now you seem to be just throwing your toys out the pram, instead of following the discussion

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:36 pm
by Roboframer
Whatever.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:43 pm
by Graysalchemy
Fitting up evidence what have the CP come too. :oops: :oops:

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:21 pm
by JohnMcafee
Cough!

You opened this thread with a pretty categorical statement, Roboframer: -

This came in for re-framing, the silicone had failed, or the backing had, or both.

You can see that not only has the glaze been eaten away but there is a serious dip in each corner. There is mountboard facing paper stuck to the silicone, but no tile material, that's just been eaten away by this 'orrible muck!


You seemed to be saying that silicone ate through the glaze and partway into the tile. A notion that I just couldn’t let go unchallenged. After all many folk come to the forum for enlightenment, so something that is presented as fact aught, in fact, to be true, and not just a figment of someone’s imagination.

Try as I might, there was no way of getting you to address this single issue. Sure, I used a bit of sarcasm, a tool that you have often used to great effect, but always with the aim of focussing your attention on your own original thesis.

You really should have read some of the things that I said. This is not an argument about the conservation properties of silicone. I am only interested in the facts here – whether or not silicone can eat through the tile as you stated. Introducing tired old red herrings like how you (wrongly by the way) perceive my stance on conservation issues, how to fix door hinges, and now cat’s arseholes, no less, all seem to have one purpose, and that is to avoid answering one single simple question.

Can silicone eat through a glazed tile?

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:27 pm
by Roboframer
Look at the photos, read the points, make your decision - I'd made mine about 8 years before I posted it.



I have to colour code my offcut bin now.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:36 pm
by JohnMcafee
How sad that someone who has commanded so much respect on the forum has come to this.

Shame on you Roboframer.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:43 pm
by Graysalchemy
Can you not possibly think that the 'damage' may have come from manufacture? We have heard evidence that it is unlikely that acetic acid can dissolve glazed clay and that in in the process of manufacture glaze is removed from the corners.

If you look at your picture you seem to miss the fact that there is a very large blob of silicon in the middle which hasn't eaten away the glaze.

As you said you made up your mind 8 years ago long before this piece came in so I would suggest you don't want to look at the facts but just want to make a point about the evils of silicon. If you want to do that use an example that actually stands up to scrutiny.

Ps. I did manage to see you last post before it was remove by admin and I agree Mr Gallagher definately is a ......................

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:57 pm
by Roboframer
Graysalchemy wrote:If you look at your picture you seem to miss the fact that there is a very large blob of silicon in the middle which hasn't eaten away the glaze.


I've got the actual thing in front of me FHS - do you think I'd miss something like that? There's no silicone in the middle, the tile is convex, I placed the bits that had come off in the centre of the board.

In the OP I could have maybe said "IMHO" the silicone has caused damage or "it looks like" it has caused what you see. But - and like I said earlier - regardless if it removed the glaze, the framer did or there never was any (there was we have since found out - customer made this herself) the surface that remains is loose and gritty and IMHO - the silicone has done that ............and it failed anywa\y

Graysalchemy wrote:As you said you made up your mind 8 years ago long before this piece came in so I would suggest you don't want to look at the facts but just want to make a point about the evils of silicon. If you want to do that use an example that actually stands up to scrutiny.


This just backed up the stuff I'd read and believed that long ago, that's all, and that is basically that it will not leave most any surface as it was before it was stuck to it and that it, like many adhesives, has 3 chances of failure, as described.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:14 pm
by JohnMcafee
Have you answered the original question Roboframer? I'm still unclear.

Can silicone eat into a glazed tile in the way that you stated in your original post?

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:31 pm
by Roboframer
I have removed stray streaks and blobs and underneath there is no glaze - I believe it did more than that where more was applied and left alone it would have come right through the front of the tile, dropped in the frame, eaten through that, fallen on the carpet and eventually rotted the house foundations and then the whole world.

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:33 pm
by JohnMcafee
So, is that a yes? :)

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:37 pm
by Graysalchemy
So now that you have enlightened us on the devastating effects of silicon and how it is not advisable to use it, how are you going to fix it the the backing board?

I presume you will be supporting it with strips of mylar, but how are these attached to the backing board?

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:03 pm
by Roboframer
Mylar - you're 'avin a laugh - this stuff failed but 2 part epoxy resin won't.

Customer wanted no glass so she could touch it; I saw that as an opportunity to solve the problem of mounting - just don't!

She will be having a slip-over frame with artglass UV, the tile will sit on a felt-covered shelf so she can tale it right out whenever whe wants and between times it'll be protected from dust and UV light.

Aren't I great?

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:39 pm
by stcstc
right enough already you two, if you cant play nice dont!!!!

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:46 pm
by Roboframer
I don't see anything not nice about AG's or my last post.

Had I not suggested alternatives to the customer then I would have had to stick it with something, and yes, it would indeed have been something like epoxy resin.

Had it been a 'normal' job i.e. with glass and the frame sealed in the normal way then I would have suggested formed rods and not melinex/mylar because the tile is not flat and the design is in relief - it would have looked naff.

I have mounted quite a few glazed (shiney) but flat tiles with melinex though, by making two straps, one to the width of the tile; one to the height. One goes around it vertically and is passed through slits in the mounting board, but before that the other strap is wrapped horizontally around the tile and the first strap and fixed to itself at the back, this prevents movement from left to right.

Like this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4521&p=41139

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:14 am
by prospero
I have emailed these guys and the whole subject will be tested in the next series. :happy:

Image

Re: Slipped tile - silicone

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:10 am
by Not your average framer
On a lighter note, I wonder how many of us know about the advantageous properties of silicone. Silicone and flexible polyurethane materials are used throughout most of the worlds manufacturing industries, because of their long term fexibility and durability.

Many materials which require bonding together can exhibit different degrees of flexing during normal usage, storage and transportation. In other cases, the materials to be bonded may exhibit different rates of mechanical expansion in response to changes in temperature. In these situations a flexible, durable and gap filling type of adhesive can prevent stress induced failures of the bond between these dissimilar materials.

Both the silicone based and the polyurethane based range of products are used for adhesive bonding, sealing, encapsulation and the production of moulded components. They are capable of being produced with a wide range of physical properties with variations in operating temperature ranges, viscosity prior to curing, elasticity, compressiblity, hardness, etc.

Being trained for my original career as a design engineer, I had to learn about terms such as, Youngs modulus of elasticity and Shore hardness ratings. These are just some of the terms which are used to specify the performance and characteristics of this family of materials. Those interested may if they wish Google these terms for more information.

It is no exageration to say that there are some situations and requirements where there are no viable alternative which can be used in place of this family of adhesives. Silicone adhesives in particular have acheived enormous universal usage because of the massive range of materials to fhich the are capable of reliably bonding to.