Conservation Question

Conservation Issues

Re: Conservation Question

Postby prospero » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:45 am

I think it's part of the skill of the framer to decide just what materials/techniques are necessary for conservation of the individual piece.

I sure some customers have the mistaken idea that 'acid-free' materials have an active role in preserving the artwork. But if something is done on very acidic paper or with inferior quality paints it will deteriorate no matter how much acid-free stuff or UV glass you pack round it.

It's like saying the more low-calorie food you eat the thinner you will get. :roll:
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby iantheframer » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:55 am

I would say that UV glass is a requirement of conservation framing if any artwork is being displayed in an environment where UV light is present. If it is being framed for display in a controlled environment and will not leave this then it is superfluous.

The most often overlooked point is that ALL light causes damage so levels should always be as low as possible.

We were advised many years ago that cotton gloves can damage paper, sometimes because they can collect dust and debris and sweat can seep through them.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framerpicture » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:43 pm

I agree with prospero- The skill of the framer is deciding the right material for the specific job and advising the custome on how and where best to hang so that it avoids direct sunlight, extreme heat, or high humidity.

I'm not convinced Pastels require UV glass as they are pure pigment. However it is important its painted on acid free paper,mounted in a conservation manner and hung in the right place.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby prospero » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:01 pm

Exactly. :D

When framing a pastel, part of the conservation treatment would be to space the glass well away. Not so critical on a (pencil) drawing or watercolour. In terms of permanency, I've never known a pastel fade. But I have seen the paper fade. Pastels are usually done on tinted paper and this can be very prone to fading. Although it's not really noticeable until you take it out the mount. Artists tend to use the background paper colour as part of the work so there will typically be a lot of it exposed. So there is a case for UV glass on pastels.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Roboframer » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:19 pm

I think the 'skill' of the framer is to make a bloody frame!

I'm no art valuer/appraiser and, thanks to avaliable materials and keeping my fnger on the button regards methods, that I can use as default if I wish, I don't need to be.

Anything that would cause harm to (pretty much) anything that comes in that I have no control over would be the customers' (informed) decision; not my suggestion based on what I think I'm looking at.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby IFGL » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:49 am

that robo is kinda what I was trying to say, you put it better than me though.

Just because an item won't fade, dosn't mean I will frame it with normal glass and call it conservation framing .
but I would use flexi clips if I saw fit.
this is one of the reasons I didn't bother with the FATG.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framerpicture » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:17 pm

Roboframer wrote:I think the 'skill' of the framer is to make a bloody frame!




We all have different USP's, and I've set my business up with machinery that means making a finished framed picture is a process that is fairly quick and easy to train someone to do to a high standard within days of starting. Of course there are some jobs they won't know how to do but thats where my expierience comes in.
All jobs are demarcated, so we have a dedicated mount cutter, frame cutter/maker etc who are just machine operators ( why would I want to train potential competitors in all aspects of framing?) and use the materials and follow the instuctions created at the design desk in consultation with the customer.

So yes we make good frames ( or should I say the machinery does) but I see the help and advice given at the design desk as the most important skill.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Roboframer » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:42 pm

I probably should have used a suitable emoticon!

Of course there's more to framing than ..... framing, like making the tea, sweeping the floor .......... and, sure, from time to time, recognising certain types of artwork for what they are if the customer has no idea ... and impressing those that have, be those certain types valuable/collectible or a total load of carp. :roll:

My point was that I (generally) have no need to get involved in discussions about what an item is worth in money, sentiment or anything else, because I know my default methods and materials won't harm it - I can just forget about that bit and concentrate on what looks best, which, along with cost, is all the average punter is interested in. (generally)

Framerpicture wrote:All jobs are demarcated, so we have a dedicated mount cutter, frame cutter/maker etc who are just machine operators ( why would I want to train potential competitors in all aspects of framing?)


I've never seen an employee as a potential competitor; no-one previously employed by me has competed with me and to be honest I wouldn't care if one did!

I run a one-to-one course aimed mainly at those wanting to move from a workshop only (be it home based or otherwise) to a shop - and I wouldn't worry a jot if that was in a neighbouring town or village - or - if I lived in a large town/city - the same one. Although I did once receive a CV from someone who actually said s/he wanted to start a framing business locally - didn't make the interview - I replied offering my course 8)

Anyway - all your framers could get together and form their own framing business, they could quickly teach each other their individual skills and open up across the road :shock: :giggle:
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framerpicture » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:46 am

I take your point about the default level of framing you offer however in my case 60% of the work we do is resold , either by an artist or another gallery. The end user often marks up my price by at least 100% so if we used UV glass for everything it would make the finished price far to high for them to sell. Our skill as framers is to frame each individual piece to an agreed level of conservation and price . That said, all work is mounted in conservation mountboard, has barriers etc but in a month we would use over 200 sheets of float glass and only 6 of UV waterwhite.



I think this forum is great, but with the number of Newbies, its bound to be creating a competitor for an existing framer somewhere .
How will you feel when you discover that the empty shop next door to you has been taken by a new start framer who joined this forum and you (and others) have told them everything they want to know , from where to source materials, how much you charge(Price check please), to how to mount a medal with mylar? They wouldn't need to go on your course as they can get probably get all the information they need free from this forum :D Just saying!
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby prospero » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:17 am

:D If I were starting up, the last place I would want to do it is next door to an established business doing the same thing. Or even in the same town.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby stcstc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:18 am

if it doesnt have uv glass its not to FATG conservation standard..

as for someone opening next door to anyone, if they are mad enough to open next door to an established business fair play to them i say

I recently was looking at a new unit, until i saw there was another framer in the same estate. so moved on.

you have to be confident in your own business and backup to be able to withstand competition. if your worried about the competition give up now, it will either make you ill or you will go out of business

I have withing a few miles of me i reckon 20 other framers. but i am very busy (actually this year has been my busiest yet) but i dont stress the competition. BUT i do get annoyed at suppliers selling direct to my customers!! that will kill the industry very quickly!!
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framerpicture » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:11 pm

I've been in business for 25 years, I'm not afraid of competition but I am wary of it. I think it was Holland and Barret the health food store who's business model when they started was to find succesful independent retailers and to open their stores as close as possible. It seems to have worked for them!

When I started I bought the machinery and trained myself, there were very few courses and not much available information other than a quartertly trade magazine and a once a year visit trade show.
Now there is endless free information from both this forum and the rest of the internet.We also have trade suppliers who will supply anyone at the same price as you and I pay for as little as a £30.00 order. You can also get all the equipment u need to start, second hand, for about £2k

I stand by the fact that I don't think it will be long before this forum creates a (close) competitor for one of the members on here and although customers tend to be loyal, when times are tough (and I feel its going to get tougher) customers look around. As Tesco keep telling the nation "Every little helps" :D
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby David McCormack » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:29 pm

stcstc wrote:if it doesnt have uv glass its not to FATG conservation standard..


At conservation level the FATG only say that UV glass should be considered. So, if it is considered UV glass is not required for whatever reason, then that piece can still be framed with non UV glass and labelled as framed to FATG conservation standard (provided it meets other conservation criteria of course). It’s only at museum level that say UV glass should be used unless the picture is to hang where UV levels are controlled.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Roboframer » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:42 pm

Framerpicture wrote:I stand by the fact that I don't think it will be long before this forum creates a (close) competitor for one of the members on here


You not thinking this does not make it a fact - it's a fact that you believe it - but I think your points are worthy of a separate thread.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framerpicture » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:03 am

Fair point Robo, its definately not a fact (Yet! :D ) bad use of English on my part.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Framer Dave » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Roboframer wrote:For anyone who has the GCF study guide - why does the frame sealing tape have to be the gummed variety? It's my default anyway - but only because I like it and it's cheap.


Because a water-based adhesive will almost always hold up better than pressure-sensitive adhesives.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Roboframer » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:58 pm

A couple of times it won't would be on plastic frames (and plenty of wooden ones that are finished on the back) and water-resistant backing boards; the Guild has no problems with either, so maybe they should stipluate that self adhesive tape could be used on cetain surfaces or that those surfaces are treated so as to take gummed tape. As it stands materials that would certainly fail, would pass the test.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Not your average framer » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:04 am

Framerpicture wrote:I don't think it will be long before this forum creates a (close) competitor for one of the members on here


I think that this would depend a lot up on the location and how you pitch yourself in the market. I've had a few local competitors come and go over the years and I don't think that this is something to be too worried about.

Considering the strive for excellence which appears to be the hallmark of so many of us and the fact that any prospective new competitor would probably need to hit the ground running and know what he, or she was about. Also starting up as a competitor against a well established, experienced framer who already has a good reputation can be very difficult for a new guy who lacks the experience and knowledge of the existing framer.

I think that most of us need not worry about this possibility all that much.
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Re: Conservation Question

Postby Steve N » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:36 pm

Framerpicture wrote:
I don't think it will be long before this forum creates a (close) competitor for one of the members on here


Well I've been in the business for over 23 years, and having worked for different framers and becoming a director of a framing company in that time. I opened my own business here on the outskirts of town four years ago, one of my competitors of long standing, popped in to say hello, now about a year ago I was told by somebody within this industry that they has been asked not to do business with me by two other framers, one was the one who had popped in and the other was by an individual of another framing company in the next town .

Wow are they scared of me, you bet they are :rock:

When I feel down, I just think of them and I then feel on top of the world :muscle: :dance: :lol:
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