Need expert advice - please dont laugh

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Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Keith Hewitt » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:00 am

I get all my framing done by a very good friend who I see in the pub .
He has been framing for over 40 years and is now in his 80's
He loves to frame, mostly his wife's water colours, plus jobs from friends and mates.
I gave him ( against my better judgement I must admit ) a world map laminated on both sides, size about 3 x 4 feet
He even told me what a bu***r it had been to glue it down :Slap:
Within 2 days I saw there were 3 foot long bubbles looking a bit like an airship :head:
Last night I took it back
Amusingly he began by blaming my map saying its so smooth you cant get anything to stick it down permanently.
He used a hand help roller. No idea what adhesive.
2 questions - what has he done wrong and secondly what the best way to rescue it ?

Thanks for any advice & suggestions
I have visited framers in 83 countries - no two are the same.

"Cut mounts are like haircuts, they are both bad when overcut."
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby theframer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:53 am

Hi Keith
I would take it to another framer to take it out and see if they can remove the map from whatever he stuck it to there is a heavy duty dry mount tissue that should sort it out,
Good luck.
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby prospero » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:58 am

Ooooooooooooooooh Dear. :cry:

He is right. They are a bu*gger to mount.

Can you peel it off in one piece?

If someone brought it to me I would warn them that it's not really possible to frame such a thing reliably and suggest
four drawing pins. If they persisted I would get some d/s heavy-duty carpet tape and lay it on a board in strips, trying to
butt the edges neatly as poss without overlaps or gaps - leaving the release paper on the top side.
Then align the map on the board and hold in place with some bulldog clips on the long sides.
Next, lift a narrow end of the map and peel the end tape strip and smooth down. Remove clips and lift the other (unstuck) end.
Peel the tape strips one at a time and smooth down. This way you won't go out of wack.
When all the strips are peeled, go over with a hand roller until your arm feels like it going to drop off.
This sort of tape stays sticky, so if it did bubble you can roll it down again. It might keep doing it, but these sorts of maps were never
meant to be stuck down so it's all a bit of a compromise ('lash-up' is the word. :lol: ).

Can you get an unlaminated copy? That would make life more simple all round.
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Steve N » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am

The main problem with these laminated maps/posters is that the laminated is made of two bits of plastic of different thickness, so that when the map/poster cools down after being laminated, the two sides cool at a different rate, and not to the same size, that is the reason they do not lie flat. I will not even attempt to glue one of these down, I know that no help to you Keith as the damage is down, he might have used carpet spray glue, Mark (NYAF) might know what to use to loosen this spray glue
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Not your average framer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:33 pm

It's pretty close to pointless try to bond to most things that are laminated using normal glossy laminating materials..The glossy outer part of the laminating material is almost always Polyester, your chances of getting a satisfactory permanent bond to glossy Polyester is a problem.

Forget about dry mounting in a heated press, it is fraught with too many problems, especially air which cannot escape from behind the laminate. Prosperro's suggestion of using double sided carpet tape is about as good as you will probably get, but eventually the self adhesive will fail.

I would not be offering to remove the item from whatever it has been stuck down onto either. items which have been laminated and then stuck down onto something have a high risk of de-laminating where the paper is between the two layers of laminating materials. Unfortunately the paper in the middle of the sandwich will be the weakest material in the sandwich.

Without being sure of what has been used to stick this item down, it's not even sensible to speculate about whatever solvent might be effective in removing the original adhesive. The most likely solvents which come to mind are also one's that probably involve a health risk in handling them as well. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby prospero » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:29 am

Re. the carpet tape..... I used the method once to bond some Velcro fabric onto plywood to make sample chevron boards.
Pulling the samples off sometimes pulled the fabric off into a bump, but patting it down again cured it. I realise that fabric
is likely to stick better than plastic, but it goes to show how the tape remains tacky. Once of the boards which I did mid '80s
is in my (unheated) shed with the chevs still clinging on gamely and the tape still tacky. :lol:

That's not to say that the tape of today is as good as the stuff I used in the '80s. :roll:




btw. I think maybe scuffing up the surface of the plastic may make it a bit more stick-friendly.
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Steve N » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:55 am

Well it might as well be me :giggle: :Slap: Sorry keith
For TFF post.jpg
For TFF post.jpg (177.89 KiB) Viewed 605 times
Steve CEO GCF (020)
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Keith Hewitt » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:44 am

UPDATE :lol:
Keith Hewitt wrote:I
He has been framing for over 40 years and is now in his 80's


He made his first box frame at 20 and he is now 82 - so been framing for 62 years. :clap:
He has managed to get the map off very cleanly by using lighter fluid and a hair dryer so wait for the next instalment

I asked him a few searching questions like what mount cutter ?
Its a KEENTON KUTTER ( Yes that's how they spelt Kutter 60 years ago) and he has loaned me the original instructions. Fascinating reading.
They proudly announce.... Keenton is the finest Kutter available to the industry"
"Always use an UNDERLAYMENT :clap:
But my pub friend has modified it and cut a channel in the wooden base to allow the tip of the blade to run in the space so has never used an underlayment!
He also brought the instructions for a MAGNOLIA Mount Cutter - Model X 204
And Magnolias guarantee which proudly says " We guarantee this cutter for a period of 90 days"
And offers some sage advive …. Please practice for several minutes until you get the feel. Anyone can cut prefect mounts with little practice " :lol:

How many on here remember Magnolia and Keenton :?:
I have visited framers in 83 countries - no two are the same.

"Cut mounts are like haircuts, they are both bad when overcut."
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby prospero » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:51 am

:lol: I had a Magnolia mountcutter (Can't remember the model) and it was crap. :cry:
I didn't know it was crap until I got a C&H one. :D
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Re: Need expert advice - please dont laugh

Postby Not your average framer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:15 pm

I well remember the Keeton, Where I was trained they still used one, untill they switched from cream core mount board to white core and found the the skinny razor blades that fitted it hooked like crazy. The mount cutter was completely worn out and there was a nack to getting it to cut straight.

The early Magnolia mount cutters were pretty much copies of the Keeton.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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