New to framing

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cmaskelyne
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New to framing

Post by cmaskelyne »

Hi, I am hoping for some guidance. I am a very keen photographer and have got to the point where I cannot afford to have all pictures framed professionally and being quite handy I thought I may be able to have a go at this myself. Framewise I don't see too many issues having built cupboards and fitted kitchens before but as will all DIY tasks I realise the key to success is to have the right tools which brings me to my question. For smaller pictures (and a beginner) are people able to recommend the things I should look at buying to start. I have a mitre chop saw and a normal mitre saw (not sure if these will do) and I have read up and figured out the basics that I will need but would be very interested in any "starter kit" recommendations (either as a complete kit or individual components). I am not looking to spend hundreds (though if it works out for some smaller stuff I may consider upgrading in the future). Many thanks for any guidance/product links that you may be able to offer.

Carl.
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Re: New to framing

Post by MikeSwannick »

Hi Carl,

I have been in a similar position to you recently. There is cheaper/budget/lower end/starter kit out there but as you will probably have experienced in your DIY, having the right tools make the job easier and more professional looking. It's the same with framing IMO. No mitre saw in the £(few hundred) price range will cut moulding like a manual Morso. The effect of this tool is disproportionately good for the money they cost. Same for mountcard cutters and underpinners. Research a 2nd hand Morso and Keencut (or similar) mount cutter able to deal with standard sheets. I have a Cassesse CS79 underpinner which I'm happy with. These three tools will, with practice, give you the results you're trying achieve. For once I didn't go 'budget range' and I'm glad I didn't because everything that I would have bought, and then gone on to replace with proper tools, would now be redundant with little means of recovering the ££ outlay.

Mike.
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David
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Re: New to framing

Post by David »

Hi Carl

It depends on who you are framing for, if it is just yourself, hobby equipment would be adequate, nothing against it but, it will take longer and more skill and practice will be needed but you can make good quality frames. If you are looking to sell framed work, undertake framing for others, or want to make life easier you really need to invest in professional equipment, it gives you time and quality. For this as a minimum you need a morso, mount cutter keencut/fletcher, underpinner I'd go for a cassese but there are a number to choose from. If you intend doing more than a low volume it would be worth going for a pneumatic underpinner, requiring a compressor, and a wall mounted board and glass cutter again keencut or fletcher. You can pick up good second hand equipment at a reasonable cost, often advertised on here. Depending on your experience it might also be worth considering a framing course aimed at professional framing, it could save a lot of time and materials.

Good luck

David.
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Re: New to framing

Post by Not your average framer »

Personally, I can't say that I would recommend anything much less than a Morso. Some people use a saw to cut over size and then trim with a mitre trimmer, but the results with a Morso give you both accuracy, and a better result with less fiddling about.

You don't have to buy a new Morso, or even a modern secondhand one. Everone wants a Morso model F, but most people don't realise that there are earlier second hand models about which are less in demand and therefore don't usually command the same prices.

The model E is almost the same as the model F and the only differences are a slightly difference measurement system, but you may be able to pick up a model E a bit cheaper. Then there are some of the older models with the steel measurement rules, while these look somewhat dated and if they are still in reasonable condition these can be easy to pick up for not a lot of money.

As far as underpinners are concerned, there are a few older second hand ones about which still may be worth looking around for and you do see Euro and Pistorious underpinners going for fairly affordable prices, so these may be worth checking out. Obviously the spares situation for either of these is not good as these are no longer current production models, but they are fairly solid machines and seem to just keep going.

Older mountcutters are often cheap, but some of them have seen better days and often it is better to limit the age of a second hand mountcutter and get some advice from forum members before thinking about which mountcutters are best avoided.
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cmaskelyne
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Re: New to framing

Post by cmaskelyne »

Thanks all for your advice. This will be purely for pictures I am going to hand in our house so I don't need really professional gear but seems sensible to try and go for something of better quality but second hand. I'll take a look at what is out there. Many thanks.
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IFGL
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Re: New to framing

Post by IFGL »

Jamesnkr

Re: New to framing

Post by Jamesnkr »

I started out with hobby equipment as a hobby. Never bothered using it much more than once. The results were not good enough, and it took too long.

Go second hand. An elderly and somewhat worn-out Morso will be fine for your purposes; it doesn't have to stand up to much more work. Don't stint (too much) on the mountcutter. A Keencut Ultimat Gold and no less; the older ones really are not the same.

Here was an essentially complete workshop that went for £800 on eBay recently. Often cheaper to buy them all together as people tend to look for the items one by one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORSO-mitre-g ... 7675.l2557

I'd ignore the hobby equipment that IFGL pointed you towards. If you buy sensibly then proper pro kit won't lose you (much) if you get bored with it all. Logan stuff is basically rubbish aimed at amateurs (I spent quite a bit on one of their mountcutters; wasted money).
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prospero
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Re: New to framing

Post by prospero »

I would echo everything previously said. :)

The thing is, however cheap your equipment the framing materials are not. You can soon knacker a few
hundred quids worth of moulding/mountboard trying to cut it with iffy gear. :roll:
With the money you have wasted you could have got some decent kit.

Buy cheap - buy twice. :D Sometimes thrice. :P
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Rainbow
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Re: New to framing

Post by Rainbow »

Jamesnkr wrote: I'd ignore the hobby equipment that IFGL pointed you towards. If you buy sensibly then proper pro kit won't lose you (much) if you get bored with it all. Logan stuff is basically rubbish aimed at amateurs (I spent quite a bit on one of their mountcutters; wasted money).
I hate to disagree :D but I think the OP would find this "hobby" kit perfectly suited for the smaller and low-volume work that he has mentioned. Logan equipment is not "rubbish" if you have the skills to use it. I use it myself and I certainly haven’t wasted volumes of either mountboard or moulding in acquiring the necessary skills. And I would be more than happy for the quality of my work to be judged against high-street framers. What you need in order to get the best out of the kit mentioned in the other thread is time, patience and attention to detail, and I would absolutely agree that if picture framing is a full-time business, then a Morso and various other pieces of large equipment are needed to cope with volume work. But a Morso does not necessarily guarantee quality cuts, as anyone who reads this forum regularly will know - it's a machine that can go wrong like any other machine, and the operator has to know how to maintain/adjust/repair it, or pay an expert to to do so. And it's a highly dangerous piece of kit which, IMO, someone who hasn't been properly trained how to use it could seriously injure themselves with (see http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8198 for some cautionery tales). Anyone thinking of getting a Morso might also find it helpful to read http://www.morso-guillotines.dk/resources/training.html to discover more about what they would be getting into.

James, can I ask you what "hobby" and "amateur" mean to you?
Jamesnkr

Re: New to framing

Post by Jamesnkr »

hobby: done for enjoyment
amateur: not paid

Do you have different definitions? :D (hobby = the equipment makes the process not enjoyable?)

The Logan mountcutter is inherently incapable of straight lines as it is not sufficiently well engineered being attached to a wooden base plate. No amount of careful use can negate that engineering fault I'm afraid. The moment that mounts are bigger than A3 this becomes quite obvious. Not only did I waste money on the cutter, I wasted money and time on the mountboard that I've had to go back to redo the mounts I did then.

OP has a mitre chop saw; dangerous as a Morso may be, an electric circular saw is far more dangerous; you can electrocute yourself for starters. Training is for people unable to read a manual and without common sense and good DIY skills.

Alternate idea for OP. He already has a mitre chop saw. If he sticks to using barewood moulding and painting it (rather than using factory-finished moulding) then the chop saw will likely suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotatio ... jB1UpNqY2k

For the corners he can cross-nail in the old-fashioned way, rather than using an underpinner. The 'underpinner' - Logan studio joiner - won't cope with much, and then there's the first upgrade to a manual underpinner and the next upgrade to a pneumatic one... so start with a pneumatic one - or don't bother. Alternatively if - as it seems - he enjoys woodwork, then splined corners are quite possibly within his ability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PWUEwC ... 777.930261

After that, all he needs is a mountcutter, a Framers Corner point gun and one of these: https://lionpic.co.uk/p/9383/FrameCo-Easy-Glass-Cutter
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Rainbow
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Re: New to framing

Post by Rainbow »

Jamesnkr wrote:hobby: done for enjoyment
amateur: not paid

Do you have different definitions? :D
I would say a hobby is done *solely* for enjoyment; it’s done in your leisure time; and if you don’t feel like doing it one day, you wouldn’t be letting anyone down if you choose not to update your stamp collection that day :P

On the other hand, I use the kit which you think is “rubbish” and only fit for “amateurs" to do work which I invoice and am paid for, and which I have to do whether I feel like it that day or not. Most of the time I enjoy doing it, but sometimes I’d rather be doing one of my hobbies :D

All of my customers have been delighted with what I’ve presented them with; some have been thrilled; and many bring me repeat business. I don’t exactly live in the back-of-beyond where there isn’t any competition so I think that speaks for itself.

It’s horses for courses really, and although *you* couldn’t get professional results from the kit mentioned in the thread which IGFL pointed to, I can and do, and the OP might find that he too can get professional results for the smaller, low volume work that he wants to do :)
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Re: New to framing

Post by red »

hi all
Ive been a craftworker most of my life, 61 now, mostly in wood, a brief go at ceramics
and have met hobbyists and professionals the difference not a lot usually the professional
had the guts to have a go at making a business out of it, very difficult in crafts.
the difference in quality between experienced craftworkers and professionals very little if any,
the professional would obviously spend more time at the craft, but this would not always
mean better quality sometimes bad habits become more entrenched!
re picture framing, good kit gives more accuracy and speed, what about the days
before modern equipment morsos,keencuts etc
were they professional hobbyists!? does the modern equipment take the skill out
of framing?
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prospero
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Re: New to framing

Post by prospero »

When I started off I had a Nobex captive hand saw. :D

On the good old 1/2" brown spoon and other small mouldings it was not too bad. To my inexperienced eyes anyway.
I had an underpinner right from the get-go. (Still using it). I wouldn't relish nailing a diddly little moulding. :?

Then one day an artist friend of mine went to a sale at some moulding company and came back with a trailer load of
chunky gold moulding. About 3.5" wide and quite deep. He asked me to cut it up into 12x16" frames for him.
"Sure. No problem" says I. :lol:

Right. 12 frames @ 8 cross cuts a frame = 96 cuts. Arm achey wasn't the word. :lol:

Enormous gaps. I did get a crash course on filling though. :D To be fair, that moulding would have been a challenge
even on a Morso.

So if you are using < 1" mouldings and you have all the time in the world and you have only yourself to please, hobby
stuff is fine. That said, the build quality of the Nobex saw was excellent. You just shouldn't expect it to perform beyond
it's capabilities.
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Rainbow
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Re: New to framing

Post by Rainbow »

prospero, I agree with what you've said. It's all about using the right tools for the job and cutting your cloth accordingly. I make it clear on my web site and elsewhere that I specialise in framing smaller works, which my equipment is suited for. That doesn't make my equipment or Logan equipment "rubbish" - it just makes it unsuitable for larger jobs or volume work. It doesn't mean that I can't offer a commercial service either. To use an analogy, it's the difference between a print business specialising in printing stationery and one specialising in printing fine art or catalogues. Both are commercial printers, but each has different equipment to suit their speciality.

The OP asked for recommendations for beginner "starter kits" in order to frame low-volume small jobs to hang in his own home, and the notion that he needs to kit out a workshop with a Morso etc seems rather OTT when there is perfectly good craft kit to suit the purpose he's described. As a photographer, I imagine he has both patience and an aptitude for attention to detail, both of which are necessary for craft work as opposed to operating machinery.
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prospero
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Re: New to framing

Post by prospero »

You could always go the hand-finishing route. :D

Then you don't have to worry if you have a gap here and there as long as the joint is sound.
Any small (or even quite big) defects will be made good in the finishing process - as long as
it's not a stained/polished finish. Painted or gilded finishes will bury all the nasties. :P

You won't need a Morso. You won't need any underpinner - any nail holes will get buried as well.
A good mitre vice and hammer&nails would do it. Basically all hand tools.

I've done frames where some of the corners were atrocious. Using rails from different batches
even different suppliers. Some of the corners didn't line up too well, but with a bit of sanding
and shaping and a touch of filler you would never know.

When you have done you have a frame that is truly unique (until you make another) and will
(probably) look better than any 'commercial' moulding.

Worth a thought. :D
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Jamesnkr

Re: New to framing

Post by Jamesnkr »

Rainbow, an old-fashioned framer will have cut mounts with nothing more than a Stanley knife and a straight edge. If you can get good results out of a Logan, then congratulations and I am impressed. You note, however, that it requires skill to do so. A hobbyist will struggle to acquire that level of skill. I was never satisfied with my results and so upgraded pretty sharpish to machinery that gives good mounts even if I keep my eyes closed. I don't know how you get round the problem of sloppy fittings on a Logan, but I'm impressed.

I think most hobbies rapidly go one of two ways. You get bored and the stuff sits in a cupboard, or you get over-enthusiastic and want bigger and better stuff. Buy decent second-hand stuff and you can quickly more it on if you get bored.
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