Thin black frames

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Re: Thin black frames

Postby poliopete » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:13 pm

Hi Ed209 you ask "Any recommendations for best place to send for sharpening please?" :?:

I highly recommend Mainline for blade sharpening. Mine have come back perfect :clap:

Peter

"
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Ed209 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:17 pm

Thank you by coincidence I just signed up on there site last night and noticed the blade sharpening service :D
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Ed209 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:51 pm

prospero wrote:Beware setting the Morso up with the engineering square. The blades may be spot-on 45º but that doesn't necessarily
mean the cut mitre will be. As the blades wear - or if they haven't been ground to exact specs, they can deviate when
cutting though. This can also happen if the moulding isn't held firmly or sometimes if the blade bites into a part of the
moulding and the hits another ridge halfway though the cut. Wood is a natural material and has a grain. It's not metal.

It's best in my exp to tweak the blades until they give an accurate cut rather than rely on some theoretical ideal.

* If the right hand fence does not line up perfectly with the rule you are knackered before you start. There are some
Allen headed bolts that hold down the short section of the rule. Try slackening these and see if you can jiggle it to line
up. Then do the same on the long section. Once you get that side sorted you can tweak the left-hand fence (usually
toward you) in tiny steps and test with short (wider the better) offcuts until there is no gap. When you underpin the faces
of the final corner should be ever so slightly apart before you come to pin them. Pushing the together will cinch up
the other three corners.

There are many other factors. Where do you get your blades sharpened? :? Are they doing it right?


I just wish to clarify this bit

"Once you get that side sorted you can tweak the left-hand fence (usually
toward you) in tiny steps and test with short (wider the better) offcuts until there is no gap"

Are you saying to adjust the L/H fence slightly even though it may be slightly out of line with the rule that is running exactly across the rule and the R/H fence? I am getting a very slight gap on the inner part of the moulding 1/1/4" Flat white, it is very slight so may be I am being to fussy

*I currently have a perfect line up on the L/H, R/H fences and both rules *
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby vintage frames » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:13 pm

If you are getting a slightly open mitre on the inside edges, then one or both of your cuts are slightly less than 45 degrees.
If that was my problem, I would first get a few lengths of plainwood flat 2inch moulding as a reference. I wouldn't use a factory finished moulding because even though the core wood is machined true, it is then sprayed with fillers, primers, paints and laquers and these can add an unevenness and error to the back edge.
Then I'd simply use a school protractor to set both fences to the blades and then cut some small frames to test the settings. A nudge here and there should be enough to solve the problem.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Jamesnkr » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:19 pm

With it all set up square, as you have it, put your straight piece of timber - as VF says - on the Morso. Mark, using a pencil, the point where it crosses the left-hand edge of your left-side extension.

You haven't got enough wood in the middle of your joint, hence the gap, so you need the left-hand mitre (as you look down on the moulding as you cut it) to have more wood on the inner edge of the mitre. so you need to move the outer part of the fence towards you. [Does that make sense? Even if the first sentence doesn't, the second sentence holds true.]

Make a new pencil mark, as in first paragraph. I suggest trying it in a position where the pencil mark is 5mm away from the new mark. That way you can keep tabs on the left-a-bit/right-a-bit progress.

And that's why a left-hand extension is essential (see other thread!).
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Ed209 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:40 pm

I must be missing something here if you move the left hand fence outside edge slightly towards yourself does that then mean you have to have to hold the back of moulding tight against the right hand fence then bend the moulding back so its tight against the slightly adjusted left hand fence? Other wise it makes no sense to adjust the left hand fence


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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Ed209 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:05 pm

Just had a think about this and what I have been doing was cutting the moulding in half then that was my mitre am I supposed to the re trim the left hand piece of moulding again pressed back against the compensated adjustment of the left hand fence?


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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Jamesnkr » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:34 am

You're over-thinking it. Just try it.

And the reason that it works is because you're doing the Morso dance. The penultimate cut is the penultimate 'stop' which is only half a stop from the last stop. That means that the two sides are only being held together by a sliver of wood. Hence yes there is a bend in the moulding, but you won't notice it and the bend will all be at the v-notch rather than a gradual bend along the length of the moulding.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Ed209 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:36 am

Thank you so much that makes perfect sense now I thought I was going mad [emoji34]


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Re: Thin black frames

Postby prospero » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:29 pm

The 'left fence tweak' is a trick they don't tell you in any framing instruction books (that I've seen) including
the Morso manual. It seems counter-intuitive. What you are trying to achieve is 8 45º angles, or more accurately
4 sets of angles that add up to 90º. When you are assembling the joins will most likely be fine. That's because you
have a free ends. If the angles are a bit off it won't matter at this point. But when you come to do the last corner
any inaccuracies will accumulate and manifest themselves as a gap. This is usually on the rebate edge. Even if you have
meticulously set the blades/fences to 45º, if you have a gap they are not cutting at 45º. We are talking extremely
fine measurements here. But any slight deviation will get multiplied by 4 and the wider the moulding the bigger the gap.
Wood is a natural material and has a slight 'springy' nature. Because the blades cut with a shearing action the cut can
go slightly off. This gets worse as the blades start to loose the razor-sharp edge. The left fence tweak is just a sneaky way
of counteracting this little anomaly.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby featurepiece » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:15 pm

Hi, I'm not going to pretend I know any more than the other contributors to this thread. It's all great advice from great people whose experience greatly exceeds mine. I've been in the situation more than once where I can't get the cut/join that I'm happy with, I've had success with the left fence fix, but............. The only permanent solution I've found is to simply buy a new set of blades.

The first instance I had was a few years ago - I had three sets of blades, all freshly sharpened, I even tried a new company to do the blades as I started to suspect incorrect sharpening practices. I spend literally days tweaking the fence, I spoke to specialised maintenance people - tightened this nut, stare intensely at that that nut, loosened this nut, move it .25mm and tighten again but only whilst singing a hit tune from a specific decade. Days I say!! Anyway, I probably wasted about 4 million feet of moulding, spent 30 years (maybe less or none at all) in a mental asylum. I then bought a new set, fitted them and everything was perfect. These days I just don't have the time to spend adjusting the fence for each set that's funky (extreme example I know - but I'm dramatic :) ). I just buy another set and fit them - instant success.

The last set I bought was about £140, a fair amount of money I know but it's been a one stop fix for me.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but just make sure your underpinner is set correctly.

Best of luck for now :)
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby technoframer » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:10 pm

Great advice. The Morso is a reliable and rugged machine and like any machine will take many years to master the various tweaks and adjustments needed to correct issues, its a skill like any other.

Sharp blades are essential if you need micro accurate joins. If the blades are blunt the moulding will "walk" on the final cut, that is, the left hand piece will move almost imperceptibly away from he blade as it slices down.

Another issue with micro accuracy can be the machine bed , which should be clean, smooth and with nothing on it, no tape, no paper, no dust. Make sure the moulding is sitting flat on the bed during the cut. This may seem obvious but check that the left hand support arm is correctly aligned and that it does not raise the moulding in such a way that the moulding is effectively going into the machine at angle. This can also happen on the right hand side if you use a measuring gauge taped to the bed of the right hand table.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Jules007 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:06 pm

How does the Morso compare with a professional framing circular saw like Brevetti or Alphamachine etc when it comes to quality and reliability of cut? Presumably the foot operated Morso performs the same as the automatic electric version since it cuts in the same way. My question is about quality and reliability of the 45 degree cut, not cost, as the electric Morso is a broadly similar cost to a circular saw.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby prospero » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:23 pm

Good question. :clap:

The Morso wins out on many levels. For everyday framing it's the weapon of choice. It needs no power (on the basic model),
it not outrageousy expensive, it doesn't produce a lot of dust, it quiet and it cuts 99% of moulding you are likely to use with great
accuracy. Also mostly portable. There are some mouldings that it doesn't like though. Cutting wide stuff is a slow process. Mouldings
with scooped backs or various undercuts can loose big chunks that need filling. Rock-hard compo can dull the blades very quickly.
So if you do a lot of frames using big or awkward shaped moulding a saw wins out.
But.....
Your run-of-the-mill-general-woodworking chop saw is not really up to the job. It won't produce the same standard of cut as a Morso.
You have to swing the head for each face which takes time and introduces wear. Some are better than others but generally you are
going to end up doing a lot of filling and fettling. A properly set up double mitre saw built for picture frames will give good results though.
They cost mega bucks and weigh the best part of a ton. You'll need a fork truck to shift one. Add to this a big dust extractor. They need
a fair bit of space and maybe a 3-phase lecky supply. A good deal of maintenance to keep them in peak performance.

It all depends on the type of work you mostly do. :roll:
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Not your average framer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:04 pm

The answer to that question depends upon quite a number of different factors, so it's not all that easy to give a straight answer that is meaningful at every level, but there are a few facts worth mentioning.

This may be a bit of a generalisation, so beware, but there are a fair number of cheap far eastern mouldings that don't cut cleanly on a Morso, but cut a lot better on a saw. However you need a certain level of business to get a sensible return of investment in a worthwhile timescale on a decent electric framing saw. So, the humble Morso still is the most practical choice for main framers with an average level of business, but there are mouldings that are very hard to get a satisfactory result with when using a Morso.

Avoiding tear out on mouldings with cut away backs can be a problem with both saws using circular blades and Morso's. There are tricks of various sorts to try and improve cutting these sort of mouldings, but there are limits as to how fool proof, or consistent the results from using these tricks will be.

One thing that I expect a lot of us are likely to agree upon, is that the professional double bladed saws can handle a lot more work load in the same time as a Morso. You still have to contend with blades getting blunt, whether it's a saw, or a Morso and you still need to be skillful to set both up for best results. I suspect that high speed saws, with fine toothed blades are less troubled with crumbly bits in some lengths of mouldings, compared to a Morso, but I don't know this for sure.
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Jules007 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:35 pm

I read in another thread on this forum a question from someone who was asking about taking on a member of staff because they were getting behind and the orders were mounting up. The advice many came back with was not to take someone on but to invest in equipment that would help make things quicker. People seem to be investing the best part of £20,000 in computer mount cutters that will do the job very quickly. Ok the CMC can do all sorts of fancy things as well but I think most are buying them to save time. Why is the saw not seen in the same way? They look like they can turn out moulding mitres much quicker than a manual Morso and therefore pay for themselves sooner than the continuous expense of a staff member.

My original question did state that it wasn't really about the cost, it was about the quality and reliability of the cut. If the cost, size, dust extraction, noise and the weight etc etc didn't matter, would the saw option still be a quick and accurate option?
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby prospero » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:21 pm

Jules007 wrote:.....................would the saw option still be a quick and accurate option?


On large mouldings, yes. Anything less than 2" wide - you may as well stick to the Morso :)

If it's a matter of saving time, there are other ways. Rearrange your work area so you don't have to constantly walk
the fetch things. Organise your stock to make it more accessible. Lots of small time savings can be made and they all add up. :wink:
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby Jules007 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Ok thanks
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Re: Thin black frames

Postby vintage frames » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:13 am

If your business is in cutting very wide, complex and cumbersome mouldings, then a professional double-mitre saw is essential. Same if you see yourself as a "production" framer.
On small volume bespoke framing then a morso is perfectly adequate. Both the saw and the morso will give excellent and identical results - if used properly.
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