Moulding within a moulding?

Get help and framing advice from the framing community
Post Reply
artframer
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu 18 Feb, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: North UK
Organisation: None yet
Interests: Learning all about framing

Moulding within a moulding?

Post by artframer »

Hi

I want to make a frame which consists of two mouldings stacked together. An inner moulding sitting inside the rebate of an outer moulding.

My questions about this are pretty basic:

1). Should I allow the same as I do for glass - adding 2mm to the outer frame for cutting?
2). Will PVA wood glue be sufficient for the two mouldings, or is there a 'belt and braces' thing I need to do?

Note: They are both Obeche, so I'm not expecting they'll behave differently with regards to expansion/contraction.

I know what a slip is, so it's not that I've got confused here. Rose & Hollis show mouldings sitting ontop of their tray/float mouldings. This is what I hope to make.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to look and especially to anyone who takes a moment to answer. All opinions welcome.
User avatar
prospero
Posts: 11492
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by prospero »

Simple enough to do. Sometimes you don't actually have to stick the two together if the inner frame drops
into the outer and the rebate of the outer swallows the depth of the inner. In that case you can simply use
points.
If the inner frame protrudes or is flush you can 'toenail' it. That is drill a pilot hole at an angle though the inner frame so
you can tap a few thin pins in. You don't need many and you don't need to penetrate too deeply.
If the moulding is finished then you need to sand it back to wood in strategic places in order for the glue to get a good grip,
although avoid gluing if poss as you may need to separate the two pieces if one gets damaged.

Getting the fit right can be trickier than you might think. You can cut the outer first and then cut the inner to fit in, but often when
you do this if may have fitted 'dry' before you join it, but upon trying to fit the joined frame you find it's a tad tight in one place
and won't go in. The tolerances are quite tight. You want it to fit so there is no movement but not so tight that you have to force it.
A bit of shaving and nibbling is often called for.

When doing stacked mouldings it's good to establish the difference in length between the long and short sides. This is a constant for
all the elements.

Personally, I like to work inner to outer. Cut the inner to establish a fit to the art (glass/canvas/whatever) and work outward.
Nothing wrong with working outer to inner, but I've done some with as many as 5 parts and by the time you get to the inside one
you can be off by a few mm. :oops:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
artframer
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu 18 Feb, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: North UK
Organisation: None yet
Interests: Learning all about framing

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by artframer »

Thanks Prospero.

Interesting and helpful info/insight into what I might be getting myself into... um!

The inner moulding stands proud of the outer. I did a lot of research trying to find two where the inner whould allow me to use points, but couldn't find anything.

When you say: "if one gets damaged'... you don't mean in production do you? Glueing would be almost the last action as the inner frame will have a different finish to the outer. Or are you going to tell me I shouldn't apply finishes and assemble, but assemble and then finish? If someone was to bring the moulding back damaged, then that's a charge for a new one isn't it - so I'd remake the whole thing.

I'm planning to start with the inner - my logic being that the artwork is the 'fixed' thing I can't change.

Thanks for your advice... I'm astounded at the idea of 5 parts to a frame... you like a challenge!
Abacus
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 12:20 pm
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire
Organisation: Abacus Picture Framing and Gallery
Interests: Picture Framing, Furniture making.

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by Abacus »

Another way to join the mouldings when the inner is proud is to fire points into the outside of the inner frame flush with the outer, then staple over the points into the outer.
Not your average framer
Posts: 11014
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by Not your average framer »

One of the secrets to stacking mouldings and making money is that there has to be an element of speed when you are doing this sort of work. This does not necessarily come naturally to any of us at first. I find that the answer is to work to a system and once you have got used to the system, you can illiminate much of the time spent thinking about how to make it all fit together.

It is a matter of personal choice whether you work inwards, or outwards. We all settle on doing it one way, or the other and we all think that our way is the best. Whatever works best for you will be your way of doing things, so don't get too hung up about what works best for someone else.

I start from the outside and work inwards. After I have made the outer frame, I do a trail fit with the next frame and join it after getting a nice snug fit, after joining the corners you will find that the wedges tend to cause a slight swelling at the corners, which can easily be removed with an electric detail sander. Then I generally glue the inner frame in place and fire narrow crown staples through for inside the rebate in the inner frame into the outer frame.

There is no particular right, or wrong way of stacking and gluing the frames together, so don't be afraid to do your own thing if that's what works best. I produce plenty of stacked moulding frames and I like to use mouldings which are inexpensive and look good together in order to maintain a good profit margin. As I usually will be hand finishing these mouldings after stacking, I like mouldings which produce a nice uniform look after hand finishing.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
prospero
Posts: 11492
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by prospero »

I mentioned being able to separate the parts merely because I once had one (not mine) for repair. It had a wide liner in
it that had a ding in it. Simple to repair if it were not for the fact that it had been glued in with PU glue which made it
impossible to remove from the outside frame. Repairing it in situ was not feasible. So the whole frame was a write-off.
Different matter if you are hand-finishing. Because you know how the finish was applied you have total control and any
dings can be repaired perfectly. Usually. :roll:

You can use points on a sticking-out inner frame if you use multipoints. They're the ones with two barbed prongs and a hole.
Shoot them in to the outside of the inner frame and screw them to the outer. You can do similar with std framers points and
then staple them. Personally I don't like that method but OK if push comes to shove.
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
artframer
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu 18 Feb, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: North UK
Organisation: None yet
Interests: Learning all about framing

Re: Moulding within a moulding?

Post by artframer »

This is all great advice. Thank you everyone. Lot's to think about and to try out.

Fortunately, once I've figured this out, I'll be making this particular stacked frame several times over ('Stacked' is the term I assume), so will gain some speed through repetition. Perhaps I'll start off doing it one way and then change as confidence grows and I figure out more.

Stapling over pins. Sounds interesting. Effective and fast. Though I'm a bit concerned taping over them will not look that great as a finish on the reverse. I like to make my frames as neat on the reverse as I can. Food for thought though.

One thing I've gleaned from reading quite a lot in this forum is that there seems rarely to be a right or wrong.
Post Reply