Condensation

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Nicole
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Condensation

Post by Nicole »

I have just completed the framing of a piece of art painted using acrylic and enamel on 4mm mountboard. It was float mounted on standard mountboard on a piece of 5mm foamcore with tapestry tape and a small amount of titebond PVA betweeen the lines of tapesrty tape. All this was allowed to bond and dry before assembly in a deep rebate frame with paper covered spacers and glazed with float glass. The next day the customer called me to say that there was alot of condensation inside the frame. By the time I got to his house to collect it he had to admit embarrassingly that the condensation had improved but I could see the marks inside the glass. I have only had this problem before where the customer has left the frame in damp conditions. His home although not your tradional house appeared warm but where he had placed the frame was opposite a bank of glazed doors subject to the sun shining in. On both occasions he collected the fame in the morning from my unheated but not damp workshop. Could the conditions cause this condensation as otherwise I'm stumped as to how to proceed? I have collected the frame, taken it apart to dry out in my own house and intend to assemble again and hang in my own house for a while to see what happens. Has anyone had any similar experiences?
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Not your average framer
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Nicole,

Condensation can be somewhat difficult to diagnose and the solution to condensation problems is not necessarily a one size fits all thing. There may be other things going on here. Condensation does not take place at all without humidity and a temperature difference. I am located in a generally damp county and it's not uncommon to come across the effects of condensation and things happening that are not easy to explain, or correct.

Firstly I will say that condensation need not have a lot to do with how something has been framed, it is more likely to have things to do with the presence of the right conditions to cause the condensation and this is where you will need to work out what is going on in your customers location. So I'm going to give you a few causes for you to check up on.

This list is not necessarily an exhaustive list and there may be other factors at play, so please be aware that this may not all there is to say about this. There is a phenomina known as the dew point which determines when condensation is able to occur and there is even some sort of scientific formula which explains how condensation is formed.

So here is a check list for you. It is generally not a smart move to hang a picture above a heat source such as a heater, or a radiator. A a rule the air flow from the heat source will warm up the picture frame and it's contents, but if the air temerature in the room suddenly drops the result can be a difference between the air temperature within the frame and the air temperature in the room.

All you have to do to create this sudden drop of temperature is too decide that it's time to leave you nice warm room, switch off the heater and upon leaving the room leave the door open into a colder part of the house. If it's a humid time of year the sudden drop in temperature will complete the condensation forming process. It's as easy as that.

The house may be nice and warm, but if it's humid air outside the house the changes in temperature within the house as the central heating timer turns off the heating at night and turns it back on in the morning, will result in air being drawn in and out of the house due to the internal temerature changes and resulting expansion and contraction of the air within the house.

What I am trying to illustrate is that the humidity level in the house tracks with the humidity level outside the house and the same applies to the air inside the picture frame. The critical factors are the level of available humidity and the level and rate of change of temperature. Hanging glazed picture frames on active chimney breasts is another possible problem, which does not always help as well.

So consider the hanging location relative to any heat sources, also consider using plastic bumpers on the bottom corners of the frame to promote air flow between the frame and the wall, which may reduce the build up of heat inside the frame and also prevent the build up of condensation on the rear surface of the backing board.

It is worth mentioning that heat sources can result in heat differentials between the front and rear of a frame and the resulting condensation on the rear of the backing board can be the cause of mold appearing on the backing board and eventually on the inside of the frame as the process continues over an extended period of time.

Have a look at any scientific items you can find about the causes of condensation that you can find on the internet, as you will probably find this informative. I hope that you will find this helpful. BTW, the volume of air within the frame can have a direct relationship with the amount of available humidity within the frame and therefore how much condensation con form on the inside of the frames glazing.
Mark Lacey

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prospero
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Re: Condensation

Post by prospero »

This has happened to me with glazed pictures in my window. However when I carefully removed them and left them in
a cool spot for a few hours they all went back to normal. I have been careful ever since to pull the blinds down on summer
evenings. The shop windows face west. Sounds to me like it's the same 'greenhouse effect'.
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Nicole
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Re: Condensation

Post by Nicole »

Thank you Mark this has been a really interesting learning curve for me. I would not have believed how dramatic this condition could be had I not seen it for myself. As I said we are going to hang it in our house for a while to try and prove something not only to ourselves but our customer who suggested that I drill holes in the back. Thanks again for the advice.
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

Drlling holes in the back is not likely to help the situation at all. I would not even consider it for one moment! We seal the back of frames to prevent dust and insects gaining access to the inside of the frame.

Dust collects inside the frame and makes things look dirty, part of the idea of framing something is to keep it clean and to protect the condition of items that are framed.

Also Insects laying eggs inside your frame will produce young insects looking for food. To them, artworks, photographs and mountboard are food. This particularly applies to the gelatine coating on some photographs.

Leaving the back of the frame sealed is the smart thing to do!
Mark Lacey

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prospero
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Re: Condensation

Post by prospero »

I might also mention that leaving pictures in a car on a hot day is a really bad idea. :|
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Jamesnkr

Re: Condensation

Post by Jamesnkr »

Taking something from a cold environment into a warm damp environment is never clever. If it was in his cold car - it is November after all - for a while before going into his warm (humid) house, then this is easily explained. Same as condensation on this insides of bedroom windows in the morning.
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Glimpse

Re: Condensation

Post by Glimpse »

I'd suggest leaving the picture in the room - but not opposite the bank of windows - for a week or 2 before hanging it in its final position. This will allow the relative humidity inside the frame (the boards etc) to equalise to match the humidity of the room.

The sun is warming the contents of the frame which is acting like a greenhouse, and the condensation is forming because the glass is staying cold due to the room temperature.

Once everything has equalised to a similar ambient humidity, the problem should resolve. It's exactly the same as when there's moisture inside a double-glazed window unit, except your picture frame isn't comletely air-tight, so will equalise relatively easily.
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

Glimpse wrote:Once everything has equalised to a similar ambient humidity, the problem should resolve.
I'm not so sure, that it's just a matter of equalising the level of humidity, condensation is only possible because of the temperature difference between the humid air and the object which is cold enough to locally cool the air enough to reduce the amount of humidity the air is capable of containing.

Air can contain a larger absolute humidity at higher temperatures, than at lower temperatures where the fine water droplets literally fall out of the air in very close proximity to the glass and get attached to the surface of the glass and it's the drop in temperature which makes this happen.

Acrylic glazing may have some effect upon the problem as it has a different rate of transferring heat, or cold from one surface to the other, but I would not want to stick my neck out and be at all definite about this.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Glimpse

Re: Condensation

Post by Glimpse »

But it sounds like the OP's workshop has a high humidity. There's obviously a considerable amount of moisture inside the frame/materials for it to be forming condensation, so my first approach would be to let the thing dry out whilst not in direct sunlight.
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

Glimpse wrote:But it sounds like the OP's workshop has a high humidity.
That does not follow at all! Read the item in this link:

http://www.goclward.com/wp-content/uplo ... sation.pdf

if you put the picture into a location with the right combination of ambient humidity and temperature changes, sooner or later this will happen!

It's humid air, not necessarily the materials in the frame!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Nicole
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Re: Condensation

Post by Nicole »

Sounds as if this is quite a difficult subject to be really sure about absolute rules scientifically speaking or not. I have reassembled the frame with the artwork and it is now in my centrally heated lounge with not a drop or even a sign of condensation visible. Time maybe to let the customer know that I have not had a problem. The work is off to a gallery somewhere so fingers crossed that they have suitable "Normal Conditions" as stated by the FATG. It remains to be seen if the customer shows any appreciation of all the extra work I have gone to including driving out to their home twice to collect the picture taking it apart reassenbling and cleaning the glass. I certainly will have lost money on that job but am more knowlegeable than before. :Slap:
To be creative we must lose our fear of being wrong.
Glimpse

Re: Condensation

Post by Glimpse »

It's humid air, not necessarily the materials in the frame!
Board, timber, MDF all contain air. All contain moisture. If you leave it in a low humidity environment for a period of time, the air in the materials WILL adjust.

But of course, as always, you know best.
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Re: Condensation

Post by Not your average framer »

I worked as a design engineer on military electronic equipment where condensation is a very big issue. It does not matter how much you can dry it out if it is in a humid environment, with significant changes in temperature, unless you can seal the frame to keep the humidity out of the frame long term. I'm not saying that this can't be done, but perhaps the easiest solution is to hang the frame is a more favourable position with less temperature variations.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Glimpse

Re: Condensation

Post by Glimpse »

As I said, Mark, as always, knows best. Completely ignore my suggestion to let it stabalise in its new environment - it would obviously have no benefit whatsoever, Mark knows best. Always. Because he used to be an engineer. :roll:
misterdiy
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Re: Condensation

Post by misterdiy »

[/quote]
Nicole wrote:On both occasions he collected the fame in the morning from my unheated but not damp workshop
To me this says it all. If your workshop is unheated at this time of the year then it is damp and so will the materials be damp even if they don't appear to be.

I doubt you will get any signs of condensation now as there damp has been driven out in your customers house.

He should be able to hang it on the wall with reasonable level of confidence, but as others have said not over a radiator or opposite a sunlight source
Framemaker Richard
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Re: Condensation

Post by Framemaker Richard »

The only time I saw something similar was when I framed a watercolour, it was put in the workshop office where sunlight comes through a window and half glass door... left there for a while and condensation was all inside the glass.

I think if the frame is opposite glass doors or windows and sunlight actually gets on the picture then this is going to happen, with the variations in the room environment temperature and humidity.

Of course you want your customer to be happy, but to me this seems more an environment issue than anything to do with your framing.
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