FrameCo Benchmaster

[artframer]

Hi. There's conflicting information out there on t'internet.

FrameCo
On what looks like Frameco's own website it says:

The powerful cam action of the handle combined with the size of the PushMaster drives V-Nails into the hardest of timbers."

...into the hardest of timbers... so oak. Exact webpage here: http://www.clubframeco.com/picture_fram ... ls.html#q2

Lion
Lion who sell it in the UK, say in their description "most timbers" so I sent in a question saying which timbers would you say NOT to use it with. They came back saying

As this item is for hobby framing then we would not suggest using hard woods such as oak and ash with this item. It would be suitable for more soft woods such as Pine or Ayous.

FF
There's also a comment on this thread "How do you successfully join Oak mouldings" here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4456&p=40726&hilit= ... ter#p40726 by a member not seen since 2011

Frameco Benchmaster (don't laugh) with a strap clamp. You can crush rocks with those things.

So...
Anyone appart from the absent Sim.on actually used this thing to crush rocks... er I mean same thing: stick vnails into oak? I'm going to PM Sim.on, see if I get a response and ask him for more info, but wondered if anyone who's currently active in the forum got the experience.

I am tempted to trust FrameCo's claim... afterall, they've made the thing so one would have thought if the claim was wrong they'd have been taken to task over it before now... of course, that'd be in an ideal world.

£160 is a lot to shell out and find it does not do it, when I fell for a Logan Studio thing c/w a design flaw that means it cannot in any way cope with oak .

Advice will be really appreciated here as I think I'm in a bit of a fix .

[prospero]

I think the pertinent phrase is:

"As this item is for hobby framing....."

For £160 you could hunt down a decent "pre-loved" underpinner. A Professional one.

Honestly, you would get better results with a mitre vice and hammer and nails.

[artframer]

Hi Prospero. Would that I had the space, mate. Think of a micro start-up and shrink it. Thanks for saying it anyway.

[prospero]

I started up with a Euro manual pinner in my bedroom. Had to move it to get into bed.

Still use it.

[artframer]

...you would get better results with a mitre vice and hammer and nails.

Really thicko question: by 'nails' you mean ordinary nails? So nailing and filling.

I assume this because otherwise you would have said mitre vice, hammer, vnail driver and nails, is that right?

[Rainbow]

I'd be as concerned about the mitre cutting as the pinning. If you're smaller than micro, I take it you don't have a Morso? Personally I wouldn't like to mitre cut hardwood mouldings with a hand saw but perhaps you're more adventurous than me!

Re pinning, bear in mind that you will need wedges that are designed for hardwoods and you can't use the same wedges for softwoods. You might need to leave more time for the glue to cure as well, and maybe even use different glue but I'm not the person to ask on that point.

If in doubt re the Benchmaster and you still want to work with hardwoods, I'd recommend emailing Frameco and specifically ask about pinning oak, telling them what Lion have said. Although whether Lion have actually used/tested one of these pinners with hardwood is not known so they might just be being over-cautious.

Personally I'd stick to softwoods

[kartoffelngeist]

Do you have any hardwood mouldings you need to pin or do you just want to know that it can handle them?

My cassesse is probably more than capable of it but I don't think I've ever pinned a hard wood frame.

Remember, you decide what choices a customer has.

[Jamesnkr]

Having started with some hobby equipment myself, which I used once, I'd say save the £160.

And if you insist on avoiding proper equipment, have a read of this thread. https://www.theframersforum.com/viewtop ... er#p120922 and in particular Not Your Average Framer's suggestion of a budget drill stand and simple underpinner head.

[artframer]

Hi Rainbow
Thanks everyone. I understand where you're coming from.

The thread and post you highlight, James, is on the button. Fit into a cupboard is the requirement. As to it staying there... well I've made a few Obeche frames without any bother c/w with window mounts and glazed. I've been really pleased with the results too - professional though I say so myself. I'm low volume so can spend the time. I know... that may change, in which case I'll grow the kit too and build some space.

The kit I've bought is just dandy for my level of activity... except for this one item, the Joiner. I only ever intended to work with R&H 21mm x 21mm flat oak as the biggest. Otherwise mostly with their A10 which is what I've got.

Personally I'd stick to softwoods

Remember, you decide what choices a customer has

I am currently having this very debate with myself. Whether to
a) Write-off the bit (9m) of A10 oak I've bought or
b) Try pinning (nailing) and filling, and look at how well I do with that - how satisfactory the result is.
c) Invest the £150 knowing it's a risk, though it seems only Lion are being 'safe' where claims about what it'll do are concerned (I've spent this afternoon researching it).

[Rainbow]

The Benchmaster is a good little machine for low volume framing - and small enough for even the most mini-micro set-up. Even if you end up finding that it's not particularly suitable for oak, you'll find it very useful for softwood frames.

Hardwood wedges will cost you about a tenner for a few thousand depending on what size you need.

[prospero]

When it comes to oak, especially deep stuff I find that one shallow v-nail (just to hold the joint in place) and cross-nailing near
the face makes a good join. Stacking v-nails into oak is iffy whatever kit you have. Oak varies in hardness.
Make sure and drill pilot holes for the nails.

If you can clamp the join you wouldn't need the v-nails. All frames prior to around 1980 were hammer and nail jobs.
One of these might be useful.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-mitre-vice-103374

[artframer]

For info - I've contacted FrameCo down in Aus directly and asked them the question.

(I have hardwood vnails) Bought 7mm for the A10 (13mm deep moulding).

I'm doing a very limited number of styles of frame for a very limited number of customers. Customers who want more than the one frame at a time (mostly artists) so there isn't the learning curve with each and every frame to overcome. A great deal of repetition. Where I'm offering customer choice is with the finish and then only really colour. I thought this was a good, intelligent, way to start-up given I don't have the financial resource to invest in space needed for fancy kit. "We all have to start somewhere" and if only it was always from the same point as everyone else. Some of us start in bedrooms, cupboards or a drafty 6'x4' garden shed. The Logan is the only problem I have right now (so I'm in a good spot really). Needing to upgrade the kit I have will be a nice problem to have, when that bridge comes along.

What do you consider 'deep stuff' Prospero? Would the 21mm stuff be 'deep' to you?

I really cannot tell you how this forum has helped me so far.

[Not your average framer]

I think that the FrameCo set up is rather expensive, when you can get another set up for a much better price which works very well. I'm taking about the simple underpinner from Lion, I started up using one of these and I never regretted buying it.

It consists of a magnetic wedge holder and a drill stand. It also works very well. A word of warning about oak mouldings, some oak mouldings can be a lot harder that others, so much so that even a floor standing professional underpinner has trouble doing a good job. It therefore follows that since a hand operated bench top model is likely to have less power available than a floor standing model, you should recognise that sometimes these limitations may affect the outcome if the oak is particularly harder than usual.

https://www.lionpic.co.uk/p/7761/Budget-Drill-Stand

https://www.lionpic.co.uk/p/8269/Head-O ... nderpinner

Save your money and buy the simple underpinner instead. £22.53 + £24.93 = £47.46 (+ VAT)

[artframer]

That is a very interesting suggestion Not Your Average, thank you.

Having missed the fact the Logan Joiner is not suitable for hardwoods, I'm a bit twitchy. The problem with the Logan is that it sits on two uprights with screws that have plastic heads so cannot be over tightened holding the head in place. Too much pressure applied on the handle and the whole thing rides up on the verticals because the screws don't have enough grip to prevent it. This is a design fault which means the tool is limited to softwood only and on softwood it's fine.

Having looked closely at the images and diagrams for the (expensive) Benchmaster, the design looks like the whole rig once fixed in place will not shift in the way the Logan does. My only concern is the bolt heads are slotted into the base and to me that's the weak spot.

As for the simple underpinner... you don't say whether you used it with any success, however variable due to the differing hardness of the wood, on oak?

I know the chevron I've been using is very dark, darker than the rest of the length I cut it from and I'm wondering if it's a particularly hard bit.

[vintage frames]

If you're buying your mouldings from R&H and they are all plain woods and especially oak, then you don't need an underpinner. The only people who need an underpinner are those that use factory mouldings. Just use the money to buy a few good frame strap clamps. Glue and clamp the frame overnight, then pre-drill the corners with a moulding pin set in a small hand-drill and then tap home the pins with a pin-hammer. £20 - £30 all in, and I bet you'll a better joint than with an underpinner!

[Not your average framer]

Vintage frames is not only quite correct, but not everyone will necessarily be aware that the underpinner was not invented about 60 years ago and if you needed to glue and join the corners of a frame before then, vintage frames has just described exactly how frames were joined in those days.

[artframer]

I accept your greater experience and wisdom here.

I have an oak frame made by someone else that has been pinned and filled, then finished with either oil or a clear varnish - not sure which (I know how to test it and intend to just for interest). It's been done very well, looks expert, though when you do see the little circlular filled spots because with the best will in the world they're not invisible... I don't know, it's an aesthetic, I'm irritated by them. Will customers notice and care, I doubt it. V nails do mean that there's nothing filled on the visible faces of the moulding. This is why I'm feeling reluctant to give up on a joiner. Interestingly I have some more oak frames done by the same guy after the one pinned and they're not, they're v-nailed. Whether he changed for speed or aesthetics I'll never know.

I'm less confident about drilling a small moulding than I am about v-nailing one. I think I need to give it a go though, it'll be a good skill to develop regardless.

[Jamesnkr]

You are of course right. The problem is you are trying to achieve the impossible. People (some with decades of framing experience) are trying to dissuade you from the decision you had already made.

1. You cannot realistically hope to join oak consistently with a hand-held underpinner. Many would argue that you can't do it with a foot-operated manual underpinner. Prospero, who has decades of experience, can. You've no hope. It can be a pig of a job with a pneumatic underpinner anyway!

2. Look for a bench-top underpinner. This is about £500-600 more than it's worth, keep an eye out for another one. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morso-hydrau ... SwpCpZsdst

3. So either stick to obeche, or use nails.

[prospero]

Persoanally, I can live with filled nail holes in oak. They are not very noticeable to me and a customer probably wouldn't
pay them any heed whatsoever. If it's a toss-up between cosmetics and joint integrity I'd go for the latter.
V-nails aren't the magic solution in all situations. They have their limitations.


The best way to join oak invisibly is a dovetail jointer.

https://www.lionpic.co.uk/r/25413/Hoffm ... ng-Machine

Not a cheap option.

[artframer]

Hello James, Prospero

Despite how it might read, I am totally taking on board yours and others advice. I like to think I've the good sense to recognize it when I see it and please understand I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I know I'm not on an easy track - framing is a creative craft skill with many nuances - why I want to do it I suppose and I have to say I'm enjoying what I've done so far, can see how it could become a passion. Hands up here, I know, I'm trying to start-up from zero, with only some training (that I thought was good... not DIYFraming which doesn't appear to be rated here), no space, no 'proper' kit, a tiny budget, but a few customers lined-up - just this forum, my research abilities using the internet for support (no guru in the workshop to show me how and call me a tw*t at appropriate times) and hopefully a reasonable intelligence on a good day. Not the easy/fast way or the, probably, best way. So it's slowly does it, accepting I'll make mistakes, hoping they'll not be great big costly ones; researching, asking; for sure being tenacious, exploring all the options thoroughly and then some, and perhaps one day, I'll be the expert

I had concluded last night that my way forward is:
1) Use up the Oak I have, pinning and filling the corners. (It's quite likely I'll end up rather liking little round dots of filler. I know customers won't even register them.)
2) Possibly don't offer Oak to customers despite it being very popular, depending on how I feel after having completed number 1.
3) Save up for a Joiner as my first 'proper' kit purchase, prioritising oak capability when assessing them.

Compared to where I was just two months ago, I'm already in a different place knowledge wise and thanks go as much to this forum and you as to anything.

(No response from FrameCo today. I am intrigued as to what they'll say, though I'm expecting them to repeat Lions response if I'm honest, despite claims of 'hardwood' capabilities out there.... that is assuming they respond at all. I'll publish it here in case it helps others, should it be forthcoming.)