Paint finished frames

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DEEPJOY
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Paint finished frames

Post by DEEPJOY »

Hi All

I hear Farrow & Ball mentioned quite a lot when people are talking about painted frame finishes. is it snobbery, quality of finish or just traditional? What are the down sides of whacking on Wickes, Wilko's or Dulux over the Farrow & Ball range?

I have had success with emulsions and acrylics from 'no names', have I now broken a framers code and will I now get banished to the national waste dump, of synthetic frame shavings from all morso users? :sweating:
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by joh5nny »

IMG_0479.JPG
IMG_0479.JPG (2.32 MiB) Viewed 8554 times
Speaking personally, I use Farrow and Ball colours, but most of them are Valspar tester pots from B&Q at £3.00 per pop. I put a light coat of Renaissance wax onto an emulsion. Have attached a picture of a Charleston Grey Frame completed earlier today...
Jamesnkr

Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Jamesnkr »

You can't reproduce F&B colours from a Dulux/B&Q machine, so they are unique. And they are a great brand name, so there is a certain amount of swank associated with the use of their name.

In many areas people will pay a significant premium for a F&B paint finish.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Glimpse »

A colour can't be "unique", it can be matched pretty much exactly using B&Q's colour matching system - the only difference is that F&B trademark their colours' names, they can't trademark the actual colour.

In my experience, F&B paints have a chalkier texture than most emulsions so they reflect light differently. But if you're using a finishing wax, you're killing most of that surface texture so the difference will be minimal.

Nice job by the way Joh5nny :clap:
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by vintage frames »

AS Glimpse said, the F&B colours do have a chalkier appearance, and as James said, the F&B colours can't be reproduced on a B&Q mixer. Both are right.
F&B mix their colours with a complex mixture of pure pigments where the actual hue produced has several deeper layers of complementing colour, and the resulting finish is dry and chalky because of the high number of solids used, ie pigments.
The cheaper brands that you buy in B&Q can be mixed to the same basic hue but are obtained by mixing dyes with far fewer pigments. The resulting paint will appear much thinner in colour and not have the same reflectance of finish.
So there!
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by prospero »

I tried some F&B once and found it a bit watery. Artist's acrylic (Windsor and Newton/Daler-Rowney) has more meat in it. :D

Wickes ripple is more useful as primer and undercoat. Also for dragged washes.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Not your average framer »

I have a few match pots of Farrow and Ball colours, but the paints a bit thin and depending up on the actual colour, the number of coats required to get a good result may vary. The match pots are only available in the Estate emulsion, which would still be my choice if I was buying a full size tin. I also think that the quality of these paints supports everything that their advertising is trying to suggest about their paints. I like to use other paints much more than Farrow & Ball, for different reasons at different times. I like chalky emulsion paints mixed with acrylic paints, or even with acrylic varnishes, because I'm looking for a bit more durability and if I can get it a bit more covering power. The only thing that you can mix with the Farrow and Ball paints without changing the shade of the paint is going to be a completely colourless acrylic varnish.

You need to add a surprisingly small proportion of acrylic varnish to increase the durability of the paint, if you include a small amount of matt acrylic varnish, the varnish has been made matt by the addition of coloidial silica, which is made up of very small, but also very hard particules. The granules in sand are essentially a less pure variety of silica, so some of us will perhas realise just how tough this stuff is likely to be. These little particules dispersed in the paint are very difficult to wear down, so this increased the wear resistance of the paint. As you would expect, adding any clear media to any paints is not going to help the paints covering power and less covering power could mean more coats to obtain adequate covering of whatever surface is underneath.

My preferred acyril varnish for my own use is Polyvine vax finish acylic varnish in the "Dead Flat" matt finish. This may not be everyone's preferred choice as there are cheaper matt acrylic varnishes and there might not be much difference at the end of the day.

I don't think that there is another UK supplier offering any range that even comes close to the variety of tasteful, muted and subtile colours in the Farrow and Ball range. I have been asked to finish frames in a particular Farrow and Ball colour, this does not happen all the time and it does not amount to much in terms of the level of business, but every now and then it does happen. Just about the biggest plus with Farrow and Ball is that just about everyone knows the name and perhaps these paints may justify in the mind of the customer a bit extra on the final price.

If you look at their colour charts in the small print, they are suggesting suitable undercoat colours and perhaps their paints are intended to be a bit thin to make you buy more paint to cover, or some of their undercoat. As some may have gathered, I like something that covers well in less coats, so I only use Farrow and Ball when I need to. I would however like to point out than Farrow and Ball match pots watered down make some fabulous looking washes, over other finishes and it is well worth experimenting with these for various washed over finish combinations.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Ive been providing farrow and ball colours on my plain wood frames for some time now and I generally hand paint them as the spraying equipment is almost always loaded up with white paint as that is by far the most popular 'colour'. I found the Fand B paint to be watery and expensive for what it is. I normally get Valspar paint mixed ant Band q. if you use the better quality valspar paint the results are very good. I sell a lot to one particular customer, all in various f Andy b colours and have never had any complaint/observation regarding the colour matching. I apply 3 coats and generally don't apply wax.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Jamesnkr »

Glimpse wrote:A colour can't be "unique",
If you insist on disagreeing with me just for the sake of it (as VF notes, you are not correct on this point), then please would you be so kind as to keep it to yourself. It's getting somewhat tiresome.
Glimpse

Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Glimpse »

If you insist on disagreeing with me just for the sake of it (as VF notes, you are not correct on this point)
Any reflective colour can be replicated... So no, I was quite correct, a colour can't be unique.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by vintage frames »

As you have said, any reflected colour can be replicated - but not necessarily by a B&Q mixer. There can't be any argument here however, if one is unfortunate to be unable to recognize and appreciate the subtle nuances of colour achieved by manufacturers such as F&B.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Not your average framer »

The colour may not be unique, but mixing one paint to look and feel the same is another matter. Different manufacturers paint ingredients can pruduce very different results. There will be differences in sheen (which is the way in looks at different light levels), differences in body, or thickness, differences in opacity and some mixing operators understand how to get things right better than others. Some paints have optical brighteners which is another subject all together.

I'm not trying to provoke an arguement one way, or the other, but inspite of all this technology, there are times when paints mixed for turn out better and times when they turn out worse. Our local B & Q had an older man working there who knew how to tweek things by eye after the machine had mixed the paint to get things pretty close, but he's not there now. However, it's not impossible to add a little bit of acrylic artists paint to make a small adjustment yourself to a small quantity, but don't do this under artificial lighting, as it's much easier to use natural daylight.

To do this you need to have an eye for mixing colour, not everyone is able to do this.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by prospero »

The term 'painted' covers a lot of ground. You can get lots of finishes using the same colour paint. The grey frame posted by
jo5nny has an open grain which adds another dimension. (very nice if I may say so). Or you can fill the grain and do a smooth
finish. I do a few 'flat' colours for a particular customer which I mix up myself. Then there are two-part finishes which involve
a flat basecoat with a thinner colour on top. Great for woodgrain and marbled effects. The possibilities are endless.

In terms of 'unique' colours there are an infinite number of possible mixes and the human eye is capable of distinguishing
colours on a very fine scale. Paint manufacturers typically give individual names to their ranges like Misty Buff, etc. Not sure
if these are copyrighted as such. Not sure if it's possible to copyright a colour or even a name. Some paint names are very
exotic while other are generic. People often get the mistaken idea that these colour mixes are industry standards but one
maker's Magnolia is going to be different to another's. So if someone comes in asking for Mushroom they would have to bring
a swatch with them. :lol:

One thing you do find is that paints look different in different lighting conditions. :roll:
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Glimpse »

The only thing "unique" about F&B is the surface texture of their paint. That effects the perception of colour in the same way that a specific Pantone ink can look different depending whether it's printed on matt or gloss paper.

To say that B&Qs mixing can't achieve certain colours isn't true - F&B use exactly the same type of pigments in their paints. The only difference is in the base mix.

Their marketing would try and make you think differently though!
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by vintage frames »

But it's not the type of pigments used but the number of. As I said, the cheaper alternatives use inexpensive dyes to colour the small quantity of lighter pigments in their mix. And some are happy with this because they are unable to recognize any difference.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by DEEPJOY »

Hi All

Thank you so much for such interesting posts.

I guess it is all about trial and error and if the finished product looks well to both framer and customer, then you know you are on the right track.

Wilko have a large range of test pots in great colours, good enough to cut my teeth on and if it works, deepjoy.
Glimpse

Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Glimpse »

As I said, the cheaper alternatives use inexpensive dyes to colour the small quantity of lighter pigments in their mix
They use the same dyes.
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by louisesimon »

If you so insistent on having the last word Glimpse, do you want to provide some facts to back this point up?
Glimpse

Re: Paint finished frames

Post by Glimpse »

Well for a start, if you look at their website, you'll see them mixing paint using liquid pigment dyes...

http://farrowandball.btxmedia.com/pws/c ... -paint.jpg
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Re: Paint finished frames

Post by vintage frames »

Sorry to labour the point. A dye is not a pigment and pigment is not a dye. Dyes are usually classed as aniline compounds derived from the oil industry. They are completely transparent in nature and used to stain the material to be treated.
Pigments are solid substances which are deposited on the surface and reflect back their colour depending on the quantity used.
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