Frame open on last joint

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tykeintumblegcf
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Frame open on last joint

Post by tykeintumblegcf »

This is a rumbling problem I've been too busy to take time out and fix permanently. Yes! I've been bodging just to get by. 18 months ago some bozo flat ground two sets of guillotine blades and guess what, frames opened at outside edge and last corner impossible to force together. Just like having blunt blades.
Bought new blades to cover while old ones resharpened, and then bought a further set when regrinding of old blades wore them down to their last legs. Problem is, I can't get any blade sets to quickly line up, or even slowly line up. At best joints are always open a gnats at outside edge. How do I check blades are sharp, sufficiently hollow ground etc (now use Lion) or is the problem with the guillotine? Have I somehow sprained something? I have now spent two days trying to install new blades which must now be blunting thanks to all the test cutting I'm doing.
I replace blades one at a time, I adjust counter blades everytime, but each time I just end up endlessly fiddling and lining up by eye and judgment to get close. Its all too imprecise like the results. When I underpin the frame and turn it over the v nails are not central they are 1-2mm off to the right. I'm using the cs55m guillotine and alphamachine a1, so there are no issues with moveable fences, just really blades on the guillotine, counter blades, guillotine head movement up and down and backwards and forwards. Should I make only v cuts or is it ok just to cut one end of moulding at a time. For 12 years none of this ever happened.
HELP!
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by Not your average framer »

I take it that whoever flat ground your blades is not anyone connected with the framing trade. It may be a good first move to get one of these two pairs checked out by someone with a good reputation for sharpening Morso blades.

It is not unknown for people who do not know what they are doing to grind the flat face of the blades, to remove the discolouration after over heating the blades. By grinding down the flat face of the blades, it is possible to completely ruin the blades with no chance of remidial correction whatsoever.

Regardless what anyone else may say, or think, flat grinding Morso blades is completely contary to Morso's published specification and from my own experience makes it exceedingly difficult to get a good set up of those blades. It is not impossible that the missalignment of the inserted wedges may be related to problems with missground blades, so I suggest solving the blades problem first, before trying anything else.
Mark Lacey

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kuduframes
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by kuduframes »

I'm assuming the Cassese CS55m is basically same as a Morso.
First thought that flies into my head is LH fence adjustment and that would normally address the gap issue. This topic was raised only a couple of days ago and you should be able to find it easily.
As for the blades -
It sounds like the blades which were originally ground flat are now scrap and out of the system and the blades you now have are theoretically good.
I always treat the blades a pairs, can you put two blades together on the bench and identify them as being a pair in terms of amount of usable blade left, date marks or otherwise. If so then try fitting the "pair" together following either Cassese or Morso or any other reputable guidelines from suppliers or even the forum. Are the counter blades you refer to the bottom blades ? You don't always have to touch these unless they are a tight fit as the blades slide past each other (or a gap)
Try and proceed with some basic logic, one step at a time, try cutting a chevron and pinning it, are the v nails central ? try and identify where you think things are not right.
I guess the next step if you cannot get help on the forum would be to try calling one of the framing engineers and possible even to arrange a visit.
Good luck
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by Not your average framer »

kuduframes wrote:I'm assuming the Cassese CS55m is basically same as a Morso.
That's an interesting question and it's not easy to get a straight answer to that question.
Mark Lacey

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kuduframes
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by kuduframes »

If you search CS55M several youtube videos as well as manuals come up.
Very similar to, if not better in some ways than than the morso and the basic adjustments are the same in principle.
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by Not your average framer »

The build standard of the CS-55M is superb and some would say better than the Morso. A lot of people still buy the Morso, because the spare parts are universally available.

One of the staff who worked at the place where I was trained left to start his own business and bought most of his equipment from Wessex. He got a package deal on a Cassese underpiner and the CS-55M.

I went round to his shop and had a good look at the CS-55M. It was a very new product and one of the first in the country, an impressive bit of kit at the time and from what I remember it cost quite a bit more than the cost of the Morso.
Mark Lacey

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tykeintumblegcf
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by tykeintumblegcf »

Thanks for your interest guys.
Yes the bozo was a cowboy and is now off the scene as are my old blades. Yes you are all correct. The Cs 55m is a truly superb machine. For years no problems, easier to use and set up than a morso. What was not to love. which is why I now feel so bereft because things are not going right, and it is really really difficult to identify the problem. I'll go back to patience and scientific deduction for another attempt. But if that fails maybe the framing engineer is the option. Does anybody know someone they can recommend, and would be likely to travel into deepest Wales. Also what sort of rates do these guys charge?
Thanks for interest, but sorry,more questions. All answers greatfully received. I'll let you know what happens.
Paul
Jamesnkr

Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by Jamesnkr »

Is this a left-hand fence adjustment issue?
tykeintumblegcf
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by tykeintumblegcf »

I will investigate, but the fences are locked with a bolt and secured with a pin. They are only designed to be moved to make frames with more than four sides. As pointed out, both the mitre cutter the underpinner were chosen because everything is set and locked, with so much less to adjust, there should be so much less to go wrong. But if I had a morso, then yes the left fence may provide the answer, it may still, but I sense it is a last resort with the cs-55.
Thanks again
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by Not your average framer »

I don't think that you need a framing engineer, just send your blades to someone with a reputation for sharpening Cassese blades. If the blades can't be fixed they will tell you and you will need to get some new blades, but there's still a chance at this stage that they will be able to sharpen the blades and you will be good to go.
Mark Lacey

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kuduframes
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by kuduframes »

Just looking back on the OP again....
I'm cannot believe Prospero is not reading this thread and not getting involved, nudge.
Is there any way that the locating pin on the fences can allow some play ?
Can it be disabled to allow some micro adjustment of the LH fence so it can be moved away from you and then try a test frame with flat pse to see if the gap closes, there's plenty of info already on the forum on this subject and Cassese or Morso, the principle of chopping wood still hold good.
The very fact that the v nails are off centre suggest that you are not achieving a true 45 degree cut / 90 degree corner even though the fences are locked on 45 degrees. So how does a chevron sit in the underpinner fence? or an engineers square ? is there any play to suggest the corner is less than 90.
You could also try contacting Cassese or their agents.
Good blades should be able to be fitted, adjusted and cutting frames normally within no more than 30 minutes, and that's allowing for a couple of customers and a tea break.
I'm happy to have a chat if you want to bounce anything against the wall, it sometimes helps, call me if you want.
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prospero
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by prospero »

I have been paying attention. :D

The left hand fence can be a solution if the blades are a bit dull, but if you have a set that has been ground badly
in the first place it's is best to get them sharpened the right way first.
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IFGL
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by IFGL »

He has already said more than once the flat ground blades have been scrapped, he is working with new blades.

Make sure behind the blades are clean and free of rust or anything else that could cause a problem.

Worn linkages for moving the head in and out can cause a problem or play in the runners for the head it's self, a crack in the case can also cause your problem, if you lubricate the machine and don't use it 24 / 7 then nothing should really be worn in that time.

A very slight adjustment of the left hand fence is probably the best solution, also check that your rebate supports are working properly if they are worn it can cause the moulding to rotate slightly forward as you cut through.
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Re: Frame open on last joint

Post by JFeig »

Find a local machinist with the proper equipment (gages and an optical comparer) to check that real finished angles of each end of a sample cut rail is exactly 45°. With that info, you can proceed. Some machines can measure degrees, minutes and seconds of an angle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_comparator
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