hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

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treave
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hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by treave »

Hi,
I'm doing a lot of handpainted frames for artists using valspar paint or farrow and ball, the problem I have is when it comes to painting white frames, sometimes it takes 4 or 5 coats to get it to look right, I'm using a sponge to get a smooth even finish but it's just takes far to
long to do. I would like to know what sort of paint or method is best, I am looking into getting a spray set up if that gives a better finish.

thanks,
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Not your average framer »

You can paint some woods with a sponge, but unless you are squeezing the sponge a little, it does not result in anything other that a washed type finish, which still show the wood grain through the paint. To get a nice opaque paint finish you will need a heavier coat of paint. Paints like Farrow & Ball, or other similar household paint do not use an opaque white medium. Generally they are something along the lines of a chalky emulsion paint. Farrow & Ball do in fact specify colours of undercoat for the different colours in their range, you can find this infomation in their little booklet. The only truly opaque white pigment that I know off is titanium white, which usually takes rather a long time for the paint to fully dry. Even so, four or five coats of paint sounds more than I would normally expect. My main white paint for hand finishing is a Craig & Rose 1829 colour called Regency White.

The Craig and Rose chalky emulsion paints are a good deal thicker than the Farrow and Ball paints and I often mix in a similar shady acrylic paint to increase the durability of the finish when the paint has set. If you are using the Fallow & Ball match pots, they contain paints from their estate emulsion range and they are a bit more watery than most other paints, their covering power is not the greatest, but the resulting finish looks great. Spraying these water based paints is not going to increase the covering power, in fact it is likely to be the reverse. Is there a particular reason why you choose to use these particular paints? The Craig and Rose 1829 range usually cover better and are quite a bit cheaper. I hope that Prosperro will mention the Little Green range of paints, I've never seen them around my area, but they are very well spoken of.

BTW, you have not mentioned what type of wood you are painting over and sometimes this can make a difference as well. This is a generalisation, but you will normally need less coats when painting with a brush than with a sponge. However the sponge is very quick for wash type finishes and usually avoids missed places. If you are finishing complete lengths of moulding and a tinted wood grain finish is what you are looking for, then you will be hard pushed to beat a sponge painted finish for speed and evenness.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by JFeig »

It is best practice to prime the wood first with a coat of sealer/primer to seal the wood pores. Depending on the wood, this might take 1or more coats before a top coat. Light sanding between coats will also assist in a smoother finish.

I prefer spray finishing for smooth finished paints.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by prospero »

Depends what type of finish you are aiming at.

If you want a immaculate, flat no-grain, no texture white then you are really on a hiding to nothing if you are starting with
bare wood. It's a long, tedious process - end of. 95% is preparation. Lots of coats and sanding. Spraying will give you a good
result on the top coats but remember you need a dedicated spraying area unless you want everything covered in paint fallout.
A shortcut re. surface prep is to but a finished moulding that is smooth already and spray that. You do have to pick the right
moulding though to make it financially viable and there are issues with the paint compatibility. Some rattle-can paints will
stick to finished moulding very well.

With bare wood I find that filling the grain with fine-surface decorator's filler followed by a couple of coats of ripple paint
(Wickes don't do it any more but B%Q do) produces a good base. You can sand this very smooth. Do more coats and you can
get it more even, but you reach a point where an extra coat produces smaller and smaller improvements. The traditional Gesso
is another way, but lots of faffing about with soaking glue granules and cooking it up in a pot. Lots of coats needed....
Two coats of ripple paint with 2/3 coats (brush applied) of artist's quality acrylic makes a good, solid and durable finish. There
will be no pores showing but a few brushmarks and a few woodgrain artifacts will be visible. Personally, I think this surface
is more attractive than a dead flat surface. It's a toss-up between the time you spend on it and the result you want.

** People do tend to get the idea that white frames are simple therefore cheap to do. In reality they made be simple but making
them is anything but. They very soon begin to look tatty. :(
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by fusionframer »

The other problem is spray painting to get a perfect finish is an art itself. I used a really decent £500 apollo spray system on some doors i was making. I was told to water down the paint (or white spirit depending on paint), but getting an even finish was hard. A mate then did it (who painted cars in a repair shop and he made it look easy, bur even when i tried to replicate his action, my finish was still poor. It could just be that i am just crap at spraying.

Also remember, that you will waste a lot of paint when spraying.

I have though about one of the little air spray systems they use for cakes etc, but in the end, i have stuck with the time consuming but reliable method.

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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by GeoSpectrum »

One coat of hand painted, then three sprayed. I use Valspar Trade paint, the expensive one not the off the shelf cheap stuff. Still get issue so from time to time but that generally caused being too busy..need to slow down a bit sometimes. It's great this time of the year when drying isn't a problem, in the winter it's a pain and I soon run out of rack space.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Not your average framer »

Some years ago, I bought a large quantity of limewood mouldings, these were particularly good for hand painted finishes, some were sap wood and some were heart wood. The sap wood has almost no visible grain whatsoever, while the heart wood has more grain and when stained passes for light walnut. When painting the sap wood, there is much less preparation to do for light finishes and this painted very well, without too many coats of paint. Both types of the limewood were so easy with just about any finish!

I'm not a big fan of pine, or obeche for smooth painted finishes, I'd rather pay more for a better quality wood type than spend too many hours sanding down on a cheaper wood type. I can't always have things the way I like thing, because some profiles are not "off the shelf" in my preferred wood types, but if you don't like lots of coats of paint and the sanding down, then paying the extra something for a more naturally smooth and clean wood may be the best for you.

As many of you will already realise I'm into fast results, ask anyone who came on my hand finishing course a few years ago, it's not just talk. However, you do have to start off in ways that are going to enable you to work fast and this is where you need to do your home work. Not all paints are the same, the quanity of solid matter in a paint has a lot to do with how thick the surface builds up will be with each coat. If you are using a thin watery paint, then you will need more coats to build to the same thickness. This should be fairly obvious.

They tell me that Annie Sloan paints are good and thick, I have to take their word for that, because they are also very expensive, but I use one of the next best options instead, which is Craig & Rose 1829 chalky emulsion. Not all colours are as thick as each other, but there are a lot of thicker paints in their range, (some of the reds are a bit thin & don't cover well). In case any of you are wondering, I don't bother with undercoats, I don't want to stock a silly amount of pots of paint, so I improvise.

I have some containers of B & Q exterior masonary paint, I phone their helpline on the container and they confirm to me that this is an acrylic based paint. This is a very cheap way to buy some very durable acrylic paint, but it does not produce that quality looking finish. I like the really matt finish that I get from the chalky emulsion, so I mix the chalky emulsion with the super tough exterior acrylic. Unfortunately, B & Q only do black, white and brick red in their exterior acrylic, so sometimes I have to match the closest shade and add some pigment, but it's not a hard as you may think.

I then mix the chalky emulsion 50%/50% with the acrylic, exact proportions don't matter, but the acrylic sticks like crazy to the bare wood and the chalky emulsion adds the solid matter which adds the bulk and that lovely silky mattness. Two coats generally will cover almost anything. You can use this a a base for Farrow and Ball paints, or you can add other finishes over these first two coats according to requirements. I like to water down Farrow and Ball paints as a basis for creating washes. Farrow and Ball paints use very finely ground pigments and make very even smooth washes.

I don't like to work to slowly, there is a speed that enables your work to just have that sense of flow, that looks both professional and also hand finished / hand crafted at the same time. Don't take to much time trying to get that perfect painted result, it does not work. Speed up a bit and it all happens with ease. Work fast, don't overload your brush and go for it. Both skill and confidence come from practice and repetition. Dive in the deep end and just go for it, it's not that hard to do.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by misterdiy »

I tend to use Dulux Trade Eggshell on a primed and smoothed surface. Three of these coats gives me a good finish, but not the same as a spray finish.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Justintime »

I'm in the same boat.
My current process is
1-2 coats of acrylic gesso as primer then light sand
3-4 coats of farrow n ball,with extender if its not spreading smoothly. I've started adding the dead flat varnish into the last coat to save the last coat.
Using a good quality "one stroke" brush.
Farrow n ball for me because I can pick the right shade for the work.
Yes slow process, but I allow a few days to paint them.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by treave »

Thank you all for your answers, I also tried using polyvine white wash satin as a base coat as well a ripple paint.
I'm after a really dead matt finish but I have also tried using white eggshell paint, it just sometimes looks patchy, but after more coats it seems to come together. All the other colours we do are fine and really quick to do but pure white is a real pain.
The wood I use is Obeche, just finished doing the first coat of Rust-oleum chalk white to see if that gives a better result.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by vintage frames »

Treat the frame as would a car- body repair workshop would. Sand the surfaces, good priming coat, good undercoat and then the top coat is a doddle!
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Justintime »

After what I said about white acrylic gesso, I went back to the good quality trade primer and undercoat today. Much better and the fnb white is going on with only 2 coats.
Dead matt finish, I use polyvine dead flat matt clear acrylic. Gives a great and wipeable finish. Hope that helps.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Not your average framer »

A lot of "old school" hand finishers like to seal the wood first with a coat of shellac. If things are looking patchy because there are variations with the absorbancy of the base wood, this could help to seal the surface of the wood. Getting a really even finish with only a few coats on obeche can be a tall order sometimes. The question is does the finish look patchy because the are patches that are of uneven absorbancy, or is the wood a bit greasy in patches.

It's quite hot weather at the moment and this is not always helpful with some woods. I don't consider myself an expert on problems like this, but sometimes I try different things to see what works. I the problem is greasy patches then try cleaning the wood with some methaleted spirits and wipe away all the residue using some kitchen tissue. If this does not help try a couple of coats of shellac and the paint over that. It can be worth trying a few things to find out the cause of a prolem, if nothing else seems to be working.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Framemaker Richard »

I don't do many white frames that require a super smooth finish, most I do are either painted directly on obeche, so wood grain is visible, or are painted on a sanded smooth or natural brush mark gesso.

My process for a smooth flat finish is:

1. glue size obeche
2. spray on gesso to completely fill woodgrain
3. sand gesso smooth
4. spray on paint
5. sealer (either spray or brush on or wax, depends)

Sample of this finish below, there's probably easier ways to get a similar finish, but this one works for me. Justintime, I've never used acrylic gesso, if it's the stuff that artists use to prime surfaces, isn't it a bit gritty and really hard? The gritty texture of some of the acrylic gesso is probably adding some work to the process.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by prospero »

I used acrylic (white) gesso for a while when I fist started with HF. it's not at all like trad gesso. The stuff I used
was hard as nails. Very tough to sand. I did some nice textured finishes though.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Justintime »

My acrylic gesso is just like an emulsion, just not enough pigment.
NYAF Lions sell have started selling medical grade wipes, for cleaning down sanded wood, removing grease etc, they're very good.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Justintime »

Próspero what brand was that, I'd like to try it, it's what I was hoping for originally thinking that an orbital sander would smooth it out nicely.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Not your average framer »

Justintime wrote:NYAF Lions sell have started selling medical grade wipes, for cleaning down sanded wood, removing grease etc, they're very good.
Mmm, medical grade wipes are just alchohol and tissue paper, methelated spirits is just alchohol by another name guess which is cheaper.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by Justintime »

I was told that Meths was too harsh on wood, that lighter fluid was a better choice.
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Re: hand painted white frames, spray or not to spray

Post by prospero »

Justintime wrote:Próspero what brand was that, I'd like to try it, it's what I was hoping for originally thinking that an orbital sander would smooth it out nicely.
I think it was from Simons. (Spectrum brand???) They do a lot of art stuff. That was 20+ years ago though..... You can get similar gesso from
art material suppliers. But ripple paint does the same job and is more easily sandable. Also, it's a lot cheaper than artist's
synthetic gesso so you can lay it on with impunity. (or a shovel. :lol: )

* One finish I did with white gesso was to paint the length and run the brush along to build up 'tramlines'. Couple of coats,
first diluted and the second full strength and heavy. When dry, go over with a tint coat of very diluted acrylic. When that's
dry polish with wax and steel wool and buff up with a yellow duster. Looks the dog's. :D

**I use Black acrylic gesso (Daler Rowney) for heavy textured dark basecoats. It sands well. I only do this because you cannot
tint white ripple paint black.
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