ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

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ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:48 pm

HI there further to my post about underpinners, my rep from simons came today and he has suggested the alpha a2m200 has anyone experience with this one and if so thoughts?
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Tom Chambers » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:16 pm

I did my training on one of these and easy to use and would say great for starting out. I got a Cassese One Cart second hand which is similar and easy to use, otherwise I would have sourced the alpha.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:53 pm

Tom Chambers wrote:I did my training on one of these and easy to use and would say great for starting out. I got a Cassese One Cart second hand which is similar and easy to use, otherwise I would have sourced the alpha.


Thanks Tom i was shown how to use an underpinner for about 10 mins so thats all the training i have had so easy to use is a good thing :)
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Abacus » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:15 pm

The problem I gave with Alfa machines is that to change v nail size you have to also change the block. Usually needing an Allen key. We change nail sizes very often being bespoke genders dealing with different depth mouldings in every batch of frames. I much prefer the cassese system where just the cartridge is changed in seconds.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:36 pm

Abacus wrote:The problem I gave with Alfa machines is that to change v nail size you have to also change the block. Usually needing an Allen key. We change nail sizes very often being bespoke genders dealing with different depth mouldings in every batch of frames. I much prefer the cassese system where just the cartridge is changed in seconds.


Many thanks for your input but to start I’m just looking at basic frames so not too worried about changing.
I’m still on the look out for used underpinner so I may yet end up with something else.
:D
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Mark Thornton » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:41 am

The Alpha is a solid machine but lacks some features that you may find handy, as others have said changing wedge blocks does become a chore even for small scale users and the inability to adjust the moulding fences also has an impact on joint quality.

Personally i would look for a used Cassese Cs88 which although it has just been discontinued by Cassese it is still one of the best foot operated underpinners you can buy.

A good condition Cs88 should cost no more than £400 whereas the alpha is over £700?

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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby grahamdown » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:24 am

Hi,

I started out with a Cassese from Simons and never looked back. The fact that you can change V nails in seconds and that they are in cartridges is a real bonus and even if you don't think you need to change nails very often now you very soon will i'm willing to bet.

they also do a brilliant range from 3mm up to 15 mm.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:51 am

ok thanks for all your advice it looks like im going to go the way of a cassese as thats what most people seem to recommend. i will see whats around
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:15 am

right just spoke to simons rep and they have suggested these two cassese cs1 uni £780 or cassese cs1 cart £800 thoughts?
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Tom Chambers » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:27 pm

I have the CS1 cart and find it easy to use and very easy to change wedges, a great starter underpinned.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Mark Thornton » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:28 pm

Neither.
The UNI version uses changeable wedge blocks just like the Alphas, the Cart does not.
Both models suffer from cheap/nasty moulding fences and only use elastic to pull the wedges forward.

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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Justintime » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:52 pm

I've been using the foot operated CS Uni cart for 2 years.
Great on pine and tulip wood but terrible for oak and ash.
I bought a second hand hoffmann dovetail router for about £800 and have only used the underpinner about 6 times since.
I'm sure if i was doing more prefinished mouldings than barewood hardwoods I would use the underpinner more but...
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 pm

I would say that the quality of both brands of underpinner are both very good, but I am very happy with Cassesse, which is very convenient when changing wedge sizes. Over the years, I have bought both new and secondhand underpinners and both have served me well, but considering the fact that there are many moving parts in an underpinner, a new one should give you a long time before you need to worry about sorting any problems.

I am an ex-engineer so sorting problems does not bother me and when I started, my budget limited me to mostly secondhand equipment, so you will no doubt work out for yourself what options will suit you best.

I hope that some of this will be helpful,
Mark
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:05 pm

the charnwood m3 has come down from £1050 to £450 inc vat is the cassese cs1 still better value?
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Justintime » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:24 pm

From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.
With hindsight, I would have tried out a few different machines, pneumatic as well as foot operated, rather than have gone for the CS1 foot operated.
As mentioned earlier, if I had known how much I was going to struggle with hardwoods, i would have opted for a pneumatic first time round, or gone straight for a Hoffmann.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Justintime » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Its maybe worth giving Peter at Framers Equipment a call, he often has secondhand equipment for sale, he's a service engineer too, so it'll be checked over before its sent out.
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:07 pm

Justintime wrote:From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.
With hindsight, I would have tried out a few different machines, pneumatic as well as foot operated, rather than have gone for the CS1 foot operated.
As mentioned earlier, if I had known how much I was going to struggle with hardwoods, i would have opted for a pneumatic first time round, or gone straight for a Hoffmann.


Yes from what I’m been reading I think your right so I’m just going to keep my options open and get the best Cassese I can afford :D
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:10 pm

Justintime wrote:Its maybe worth giving Peter at Framers Equipment a call, he often has secondhand equipment for sale, he's a service engineer too, so it'll be checked over before its sent out.

Thankyou I’ll give them a call tomorrow
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:22 pm

Justintime wrote:From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.


I don't think that Charnwood would disagree about it being aimed at the hobby end of the market, but it beats the pants off the earlier M1 model and these days the M3 is probably the main contender in the hobby market.

Even the Youtube video of the M1 shows how much the whole structure bends and flexes in use. Well the M3 is a lot more sturdy than the M1 and there's not much else to seriously compete with the M3 at that level, but trying to sell it at a good price when you want to upgrade to something more professional might be another matter.

I would not completely right off the M3 out of hand, for those who only need a hobby level underpinner at a hobby level price, it make a lot of sense, but if they've got the money and want a profesional quality machine I don't think that it would be one of the preferred choices. Having said all that where else can you get anything like that for £450 inc VAT?
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Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Postby Ukknightster » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:52 pm

Many thanks for your input, however I think this forum has convinced me to go for a Cassese either second hand or brand new.
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