ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Get help and framing advice from the framing community
Post Reply
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

HI there further to my post about underpinners, my rep from simons came today and he has suggested the alpha a2m200 has anyone experience with this one and if so thoughts?
User avatar
Tom Chambers
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 5:17 pm
Location: Dalkeith
Organisation: Framed By TC
Interests: Photography

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Tom Chambers »

I did my training on one of these and easy to use and would say great for starting out. I got a Cassese One Cart second hand which is similar and easy to use, otherwise I would have sourced the alpha.
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

Tom Chambers wrote:I did my training on one of these and easy to use and would say great for starting out. I got a Cassese One Cart second hand which is similar and easy to use, otherwise I would have sourced the alpha.
Thanks Tom i was shown how to use an underpinner for about 10 mins so thats all the training i have had so easy to use is a good thing :)
Abacus
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon 29 Nov, 2010 12:20 pm
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire
Organisation: Abacus Picture Framing and Gallery
Interests: Picture Framing, Furniture making.

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Abacus »

The problem I gave with Alfa machines is that to change v nail size you have to also change the block. Usually needing an Allen key. We change nail sizes very often being bespoke genders dealing with different depth mouldings in every batch of frames. I much prefer the cassese system where just the cartridge is changed in seconds.
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

Abacus wrote:The problem I gave with Alfa machines is that to change v nail size you have to also change the block. Usually needing an Allen key. We change nail sizes very often being bespoke genders dealing with different depth mouldings in every batch of frames. I much prefer the cassese system where just the cartridge is changed in seconds.
Many thanks for your input but to start I’m just looking at basic frames so not too worried about changing.
I’m still on the look out for used underpinner so I may yet end up with something else.
:D
User avatar
Mark Thornton
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu 08 Feb, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Organisation: Underpinner Spares
Interests: Red wine - lots and lots of it.
Location: Snaith, East Riding of Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Mark Thornton »

The Alpha is a solid machine but lacks some features that you may find handy, as others have said changing wedge blocks does become a chore even for small scale users and the inability to adjust the moulding fences also has an impact on joint quality.

Personally i would look for a used Cassese Cs88 which although it has just been discontinued by Cassese it is still one of the best foot operated underpinners you can buy.

A good condition Cs88 should cost no more than £400 whereas the alpha is over £700?

Mark
https://www.underpinner-spares.co.uk Framing equipment spare parts - Easy online ordering
grahamdown
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 11:43 am
Location: Hollingbourne, Maidstone
Organisation: The Village Framer
Interests: Photography, Mountainbiking

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by grahamdown »

Hi,

I started out with a Cassese from Simons and never looked back. The fact that you can change V nails in seconds and that they are in cartridges is a real bonus and even if you don't think you need to change nails very often now you very soon will i'm willing to bet.

they also do a brilliant range from 3mm up to 15 mm.
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

ok thanks for all your advice it looks like im going to go the way of a cassese as thats what most people seem to recommend. i will see whats around
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

right just spoke to simons rep and they have suggested these two cassese cs1 uni £780 or cassese cs1 cart £800 thoughts?
User avatar
Tom Chambers
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 5:17 pm
Location: Dalkeith
Organisation: Framed By TC
Interests: Photography

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Tom Chambers »

I have the CS1 cart and find it easy to use and very easy to change wedges, a great starter underpinned.
User avatar
Mark Thornton
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu 08 Feb, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Organisation: Underpinner Spares
Interests: Red wine - lots and lots of it.
Location: Snaith, East Riding of Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Mark Thornton »

Neither.
The UNI version uses changeable wedge blocks just like the Alphas, the Cart does not.
Both models suffer from cheap/nasty moulding fences and only use elastic to pull the wedges forward.

Mark
https://www.underpinner-spares.co.uk Framing equipment spare parts - Easy online ordering
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Justintime »

I've been using the foot operated CS Uni cart for 2 years.
Great on pine and tulip wood but terrible for oak and ash.
I bought a second hand hoffmann dovetail router for about £800 and have only used the underpinner about 6 times since.
I'm sure if i was doing more prefinished mouldings than barewood hardwoods I would use the underpinner more but...
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

I would say that the quality of both brands of underpinner are both very good, but I am very happy with Cassesse, which is very convenient when changing wedge sizes. Over the years, I have bought both new and secondhand underpinners and both have served me well, but considering the fact that there are many moving parts in an underpinner, a new one should give you a long time before you need to worry about sorting any problems.

I am an ex-engineer so sorting problems does not bother me and when I started, my budget limited me to mostly secondhand equipment, so you will no doubt work out for yourself what options will suit you best.

I hope that some of this will be helpful,
Mark
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

the charnwood m3 has come down from £1050 to £450 inc vat is the cassese cs1 still better value?
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Justintime »

From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.
With hindsight, I would have tried out a few different machines, pneumatic as well as foot operated, rather than have gone for the CS1 foot operated.
As mentioned earlier, if I had known how much I was going to struggle with hardwoods, i would have opted for a pneumatic first time round, or gone straight for a Hoffmann.
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Justintime »

Its maybe worth giving Peter at Framers Equipment a call, he often has secondhand equipment for sale, he's a service engineer too, so it'll be checked over before its sent out.
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

Justintime wrote:From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.
With hindsight, I would have tried out a few different machines, pneumatic as well as foot operated, rather than have gone for the CS1 foot operated.
As mentioned earlier, if I had known how much I was going to struggle with hardwoods, i would have opted for a pneumatic first time round, or gone straight for a Hoffmann.
Yes from what I’m been reading I think your right so I’m just going to keep my options open and get the best Cassese I can afford :D
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

Justintime wrote:Its maybe worth giving Peter at Framers Equipment a call, he often has secondhand equipment for sale, he's a service engineer too, so it'll be checked over before its sent out.
Thankyou I’ll give them a call tomorrow
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Justintime wrote:From what I understand, Charnwood are a hobby framer brand.
I don't think that Charnwood would disagree about it being aimed at the hobby end of the market, but it beats the pants off the earlier M1 model and these days the M3 is probably the main contender in the hobby market.

Even the Youtube video of the M1 shows how much the whole structure bends and flexes in use. Well the M3 is a lot more sturdy than the M1 and there's not much else to seriously compete with the M3 at that level, but trying to sell it at a good price when you want to upgrade to something more professional might be another matter.

I would not completely right off the M3 out of hand, for those who only need a hobby level underpinner at a hobby level price, it make a lot of sense, but if they've got the money and want a profesional quality machine I don't think that it would be one of the preferred choices. Having said all that where else can you get anything like that for £450 inc VAT?
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Ukknightster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon 31 Dec, 2018 11:31 am
Location: Cornwall
Organisation: Lex
Interests: Printing, films, music

Re: ok so simons have suggested this underpinner

Post by Ukknightster »

Many thanks for your input, however I think this forum has convinced me to go for a Cassese either second hand or brand new.
Post Reply