HD Bonding tape question

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HD Bonding tape question

Postby +Rafe+ » Tue May 21, 2019 11:16 am

Hi all,

Quick question. I have job on to frame three decorative magnets that are 85mm x 85mm and 15mm deep with a raised decorative pattern, they weight about 150g.

They have a flat metal back. My though was to use the HD bonding tape from Lion, the orange stuff...

However I haven't used it before and not sure how it fairs? Any thoughts?

I would always prefer a wet glue to aid positioning... any input welcome.

Cheers
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby prospero » Tue May 21, 2019 11:32 am

I favour double-sided foam tape. It sticks like the proverbial, but the thickness allows you to slip a blade in between item
and backing for easy removal. No gouging and prising.

The thought occurs that being magnets you could incorporate a complimentary magnet in the backing as a extra means of support
but I may be over-engineering the issue. :roll:
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:09 pm

Im not advocating this, but just a wee thought, near 25 years ago i framed some huge pictures for an Edinburgh pub, approx 6x4 foot, it was a listed building so nailing screwing into walls was not a option, so after consultation they agreed to let me fix them with silicone, 25 years later they are still their and have had occasion to remove the odd one when damaged easy enough to remove and zero damage to either picture or walls....just a thought if you need something with no chance of being a boomarang back to the workshop.....now for the onslaught of conservation, well in my defence they were low value art and i did take advice before doing anything. and the building is grade 1.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby +Rafe+ » Tue May 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Thanks Prospero. Because on the height / detail of the face of the magnet I won't be able to put much pressure on to help with adhesion, which was my concern about using tape but from a quick play with this stuff it feels quite high tack so should be ok...?

Davie000 - I had thought about silicone, the client isn't concerned about its 'non conservation' mounting, the items aren't expensive. Is there any particular type of Silicone?

This method also allows fo the repositioning tweaks too :)

thanks both!
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Just a general builders silicone will do, since using it years ago to hang pictures where i cant mechanically fix ive used this method and not one failure ive used it on metalwork to test any damage as a result from its use and zero effect from using it so id say its a safe bet, if you need to take it apart its easy to do and simply rubs off clean, just be sure it is Silicone and not just a sealant.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby +Rafe+ » Tue May 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Thanks Davie - one last question on that - how is sticking to mountcard, any issues you've had/noticed?
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:55 pm

No worries on that issue either, and for the weight your talking of, you need no more that a spot of it, Lion also do plastic holders should you wish to look at those or there are tapes but this is fool proof and on low value items well worth considering, Last week i framed a guitar signed by a mr McCartney, ....yep you guess it i used, no ugly wires or holders and no hassle just fashion up some gap fillers to take up the heights to the body of the guitar and thats it, customer over the moon and no returns to fix it because its not held, now i know some will say the finish on the body of the guitar will be destroyed, all i can say is ive taken apart one i did a few years ago approx 13 to reframe it, and i was as good as the day it was first done.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby +Rafe+ » Tue May 21, 2019 1:52 pm

Thanks again for the insight, you can over think things sometimes ... :)

That guitar sounds like it was a fun job and quite incredible that you didn't use any wires or holders, nice work. Do you have any pictures you are happy to share?
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Tue May 21, 2019 2:04 pm

Picture lol....Ive never taken a picture of any the frames ive done its just another frame and NEXT!!!, I frame up all sorts of memorabilia, from hats to boxing gloves on to guitars and drum skins as well as sporting and never see them anymore than another framing job to be done, it can all be a bit fast and furious, The memo is framed up for a contract i have and you never know whats coming next, but like most customer i have their is never a rush....tomorrow is fine grrrrr
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Not your average framer » Tue May 21, 2019 6:04 pm

There is one factor to consider with silicone and that is out-gassing which can deposit a misty film on the inside of the glazing in the frame. The curing process with silicone is not an event, but it is a process which can take years and during this time the out-gassing continues. It's up to you to determine the suitability of silicone for your customers requirements. Some customers don't mind, but remember that every job you do has the potential to bring you more customers, or drive customers away.

Another thing to consider is the weight of these magnets and the suitability of whatever you are sticking the magnets to regarding bearing the weight and not distorting over time due to this weight. It is good to be aware of such possibilities as it can enable you to neatly side step unintended problems.

A few other thoughts to consider:-

If you are going to use an adhesive where there is a known out-gassing issue, the potential degree of the out=gassing issue will increase with the amount of the silicone adhesive that you use. Obviously, you have to have an adequate area of contact between the magnets and their mounting surface, but as long as you have a continuous film contacting both materials to be joined the volume of adhesive between these two materials does not add any extra stength to the bond, but a larger volume of the adhesive that iscuring, then the larger the volume capable of creating the out=gassing.

You may find it helpful to use the magnetic attraction of the magnets to hold them in place, while whatever adhesive you are using cures and completes bonding the two materials. If you are using mount board as the mounting surface for the magnets, there is the possibility of placing some small steel pins through the mount board and into some 6mm MDF behind the mount board. In such situations I use Mylar, or polypropylene film between the two boards as a barrier against contamination eminating from the MDF. My favourite pins for cases such as this are gimp pins which I always stock and use for such purposes.

I don't use silicone adhesive myself, as I am a fan of Araldite, which creates a permanent bond with a fairly comprehensive list of different materials, but there are a few exemptions, so do your homework and be sure that you know what you are trying to stick to, before jumping in with both feet. I use cocktail sticks, or cotton buds to apply the Araldite in small amounts to suit small items to be fixed and to prevent excess adhesive getting where you don't want it. Cleaning up excess adhesive off of the presentation face is often a losing proposition, so it's best not to go there.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Tue May 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Well I'm not about to go into the outgassing of silicone other than to say I personally have never had one single instance of it, unlike using super glues where you definitely will have outgassing, I find that the elasticity of the silicone, easy to remove without damage, common sense would dictate the use of it as appropriate IE with cotton bud or something suitable, and I only suggest the use on lower value items or where experience tells you where and where not to use. I certainly would not tell anyone to use and glues or sticky pads, I will only say with said experience, you know what will and what won't work, I personally would think twice of using arldite or cascamite without being 100%certain as these dry solid and a sod to remove should the case arise.... There are many ways to fix items I just like to know that if needs be I can reverse the process.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Chris_h » Tue May 21, 2019 8:50 pm

I can't really offer any advice on what method is best, but that HD bonding tape is solid stuff. I use it to attach sub frames to Dibond panels and it's very solid and never had any issues.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Not your average framer » Wed May 22, 2019 10:41 am

Davie,

You've got it in one, adhesives very often has some real reversibility issues. I don't like using adhesives that cannot be easy removed with water, but there's a lot of things that cannot be fixed with water based. However I do get some customers who want the cheapest possible job and don't care about anything else.

I've done quite a few jobs for local pubs and the brewery usually won't pay for these, so it all comes out of the tenants pocket and they only ever come to me if they can't do it with a cheap ready made frame. There's not much money in many of these jobs, but if you can get a reasonable profit from it you do it.

I don't use silicone at all, not only because of the reasons I have already mentioned, but I don't want to wait for ages while the silicone sets. Araldite sets much faster and I can turn the whole job around much quicker. I only have a very shop shop and workshop, so I want to get each job done to free work space for the next job and work smart and work fast.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Wed May 22, 2019 11:54 am

You hit the nail on the head, cost! i too work for a couple, well three pub chains and cost is always the issue for the most part whilst they want something looking a million dollars they dont want to pay a fraction of that, silicone works for me both on time and energy, and i need a fast turnaround, my workshop is only a 1000 square feet so space is a premium, so its frame them stack them and get them out the door, then there is the other side which is contract bespoke, higher end prints and originals that are framed every week, so its one hand for the pub side and another for the bespoke, where neither silicone or heavy glues are used, of course this work is better paid it also commands much more time and effort, using the best materials to conservation standards, and often uv glass is called for, I guess we do whats needed in order to satisfy the customer but also take a little bit of pride no matter what grade of framing is to be done, so if im not happy with anything i do its not going out the door, and all that before i start the walk in trade, so i get what your saying re: no time to wait about, hence starting in work at 6.30 am and not out the door till gone 5pm, im passionate about framing but im also realistic as to the business side and what will and wont be paid, and where necessary will buy materials from abroad to drive costs down, after all is that not what out wholesalers do? Up here im seeing too many friends going to the wall because they have concentrated on the gallery side rather than the framing side and sales off the wall are simply not happening up here for the most part, reputation and recommendation, has worked for me far more than any advertising and each and every day a learning curve...your comment was spot on the money!
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Not your average framer » Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm

well, I thought I was limited on space, but I sounds like you have less space than me. I'm still needing to properly get my shop and workshop sorted, but it's not very much happening at the moment, as I'm still getting back to coping after my stroke. A large part of my managing under difficult restrictions comes down to having tools and facilities that simplify jobs and therefore reduce time.

I make a lot of use of pneumatic nail guns and furniture grade staple guns of various sizes. I suspect that many people don't really understand why I am doing this, but a nail, or a staple it just another way of clamping something together while the glue sets and you can move on to the next task on the same job without waiting to take the clamps off first.

I don't think of how I do things as particularly clever, but I have to cope with my own limitations as best as I can and maybe some of what I am doing has benefits for more able bodied framers to think about using as well. Since I nail together stacked moulding combinations from inside each mouldings rebate, no nails are visible, but I have to make sure that the stacked mouldings are in close contact, so that all the mouldings still remain straight after nailing and gluing.

I also make up tray frames from two mouldings nailed and glued together, or boxes for object framing. I'm now only a one man band, so how do I cope otherwise? Us small business framers have to have something going for us, otherwise how do we make things work. Don't be afraid to be different and innovative, it's a good way to grow your business and gain a little extra efficiency.
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Re: HD Bonding tape question

Postby Davie000 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:47 pm

I concur, i too love to use the best tools available to me in order to be a little more productive elsewhere, I do hope that your back to your 100% fighting fit self very soon, when all is said and done, more is said than done.
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