St Ives Framing Advice

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Adyc
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St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Adyc »

I am trying to keep myself busy, and use this opportunity to learn new frame styles. I have purchased some St Ives moulding from Lion, looking at the photos I can find of frames using this there is no glass or mountboard. ( I understand the mount is to separate the picture from the glass, so no glass no mount makes sense). Just asking for any comments or tips before I wade in,

Thanks in advance and stay safe.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

There is no exact correct way to produce (so called) St. Ives frames. They began as something that fullfilled a need of artist operating in that part of the country and over the years later generations tended to follow the general idea of what earlier generations had produced. I seen quite a good number of these so called "St Ives frames" and they are not all exactly the same, but tend to be variations on a general theme. I have had regular customers, who collect St Ives artist and buy the artworks without the frames and get me to copy earlier frames used on pictures by the same artists. To some of them, it is a real big deal to copy earlier frames by the same artist, even if the artist is no longer using frames that are the same on his, or her later work.

The area around St Ives is not a particularly affluent area and many artists tend to struggle to find much money for artists materials and framing. It seems that the earlier St Ives frames started as a convenient solution to producing affordable frames for local artists. Some appear to be produced with materials, which could easily have been obtained from places B & Q, while others often employ a mixture of genuine picture framing mouldings and board material as well. The idea that factory finished mouldings are produced in the style of St Ives mouldings is not a new one, but for the purists, it is a departure from the arts and crafts roots of where the St Ives artists originally came from.

I'm not going to express any opinion as to who is right and who is wrong, but it may help to add a little bit of perspective to some of the story and perhaps to make some of us think about constructing these frames from some of the original basic materials in order to save on the input cost of materials. I tend to think that many of the original St Ives frames would have been hand finished and this would have largely hidden the mitre joints at the corners, which is kind of how things used to be and as a hand finishing framer, I still like things to be this way, but not everybody is going to see things this way. Time goes by and things are not always as they used to be. You pays your money and takes your choice!
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by vintage frames »

NYAF says it in one. One's spirits sink when I hear anyone express any enthusiasm for a factory finished moulding. Now is the perfect time to try make a REAL picture frame. As Mark suggests, it's not going to be hard to find the raw materials. Thinking you might be no good at carpentry is no excuse. What are you doing trying to frame pictures then? When all this is over, it's going to be people that can innovate and present something original and fresh who will have the market to themselves.
There!
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

Thanks Dermot,

I am counting on what you have said about producing something inovative, original and also obvious quality and value for money as something made to last. Life may be very different on the other side of this crisis and customers will probaly be careful about how the spend their money after getting through all this.
Mark Lacey

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Adyc
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Adyc »

Thanks both for your replies, innovating, yes pretty much at the minute. Getting by though, working out what I can use instead of tools/materials is a challenge at times. Thanks again, let's go off piste a bit.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

Now you are talking! St Ives frames can be an opportunity to use some slow moving mouldings that are already in stock and just sitting around doing nothing, except gathering dust. The flat bit in the middle of two mouldings can be a flat piece of board, or if you've got it a wide flat rectangular moulding. I got to admit that I often go for a cheap, wide, flat moulding with a suitable width to cut on the Morso. This sort of frame is a good opportunity to save a bit of money from your materials cost, but don't forget that saving time and effort can also save you money as well, so that cheap, wide flat moulding, which is able to be cut on the Morso, may cost more, but the time saved may be more important that the possible added moulding cost.

I am already above the normal pensionable age and have to think about the fact I am tending to slow down a little bit as I get older and I like quick, simple and easy. Thinking about getting the job done quickly, simply, easily and maintaining top quality at the same time is where it's at. I also like pneumatic nail and staple guns, which is my way of clamping eveything together while the glue sets. I like to assemble everything from the outside and working inwards, nailing and stapling things together from inside so that I don't have to spend time hiding any nails on the outside of the frame. Very often as you install the next frame you make inside the previous frame, you can use this frame to hide any previously inserted nails. It's all about working smart and thinking ahead to make things very neat and tidy, but really quick, simple and easy too!
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Steve N
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Steve N »

vintage frames wrote: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 4:17 pm NYAF says it in one. One's spirits sink when I hear anyone express any enthusiasm for a factory finished moulding. Now is the perfect time to try make a REAL picture frame.
I cannot express how pissed off I am with holery than thou comments like this, so I have not been a REAL framer for the last 30 odd years, well at least you can see a bad mitred corner of a frame made of factory finished mouldings, as it shows up if you try to fill it and paint over it as you can and do in hand finished REAL frames
I have waited over an hour to write this and I have still not calmed down , think I better not say anything else :swear: :swear: :angry: :angry: :lipssealed: :lipssealed:
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by kev@frames »

@steve *nods*

Having spent 25 years making frames for half of my customers who are actually *in* st ives, the rare occasions we have made a "st Ives" or a 'Nicholson" for a serious artist selling anything I can count on the one hand I have with a finger missing. there are great alternatives, of very high quality from the usual suppliers sourcing in italy in ready made mouldings.
Life is too short. It's the 21st century. the actual artists in St Ives don't want to pay someone else these days for the time involved in what is, frankly, w*nking about in a shed with bits of wood and paint and fillers. And I don't blame them.
The St Ives frame was a thing of it's time. So was the white painted plain wood which seems to have spread from west cornwall, up the south coast and to the rest of the country over the past 20 years. It started in a bad recession as a way for framers to use up plain wood, and galleries perpetuated the horrible look for the sake of uniformity.
Great if you have a niche market you can capture, otherwise it's just another one they can't afford, and will settle for a factory finish.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Let's try and help. All of the st Ives frames I make are for oils or acrylics and I have never been asked to make one with glass and boards so I would say the style is more attractive to artists. Although I have seen a number of the Lion mouldings used very successfully for photography.

I Make mine from two mouldings from Rose and Hollis and one from Lion. And I make a rebated and a tray frame version. I'm not that keen on the proportions of the moulding form Lion but apparently it is very popular so what do I know. This is the main reason I make my frame sthey way I do, I took a long time to get the proportions right ( subjective I know). So I have a 16mm outer rim, a 50mm or 65mm field and a 15mm inner rim which sits just below the level of the outer rim.

I either hand paint or spray mine. And it looks a lot better than a factory finish and I have found plenty of customers who are willing to pay.

Where it comes to using glass and board it's just like any other frame.

I hope my ramblings are of use.

I have never sold one of my St Ives frames to anybody from St Ives. :lol:
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by grahamdown »

Steve N, I'm with you. Customers like choice, they like modern mouldings and the huge variety that are about and to say that framing a picture with a finished moulding is not proper picture framing is an insult the the vast majority of framers who are in business to make a decent living by producing good quality work.

how many customers come in with a small card or a cheap print that they want framed and by choosing the right colours of mounts(s) and moulding you can transport a piece into something stunning and delight the customer which is what I want and to be able to make a good living at the same time.

I don't want to live in a garret like a starving artist.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by fusionframer »

Steve N wrote: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 7:31 pm I cannot express how pissed off I am with holery than thou comments like this, so I have not been a REAL framer for the last 30 odd years, well at least you can see a bad mitred corner of a frame made of factory finished mouldings, as it shows up if you try to fill it and paint over it as you can and do in hand finished REAL frames
I have waited over an hour to write this and I have still not calmed down , think I better not say anything else :swear: :swear: :angry: :angry: :lipssealed: :lipssealed:
Although vintage frames comment can be read as you have taken it (although i can see it can be read as such).

Maybe i am dumb, but it is purely his view that hand finishing is the real thing and he is entitled to express that view. If you read his posts and see his frames, there is no doubt that he has a real passion for hand finished framing.

There are stunning factory finished mouldings and although finishes are going to be different (and as you say, your mitres have no room for error).

At the end of the day, there are commercial framers, framers who use factory finished mouldings and ones who hand finish. Hand finishing doesn't mean your business will be more successful at all. It is about understanding your customers. There is a need for all types of framers, and you can be a passionate commercial framer or framer who uses finished mouldings. There are thousands of mouldings to choose from, so there is a serious skill in having the eye to choose the right moulding and mount combo.

I make hand finished frames, but that suits my business. My main few customers are artists who want big chunky frames that you wouldn't find as factory finished. I am also very passionate about hand finished frames, in particular the building and stacking of really large frames, i tend to comment when box frames are mentioned and will promote stacking etc.

Framers who mostly use factory finished mouldings will be able to use their extensive knowledge to suggest options of box frames i am not aware of.

Like i said (and i have never met or spoken to Dermot), but i certainly don't think he meant any disrespect to other framers, he is just passionate and wants others to learn what he does, so these skills are not lost.

Just my take anyway.

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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

There often can be quite a bit of work in making a St Ives style frame. It is not always the most appropriate frame style these days. Many look best when displayed on walls with plenty of clear space around them and for a lot of modern homes, there is often a lack of wall space. The use of added space in the frame, or mount can add a lot of visual impact to the artwork, but it works best where there also is a good amount of clear space around the walls beyond the outside. If you don't have that clear space around the frame, I feel that it takes away from the benefit of the added space within the frame.

Wider profile frames, such as many St Ives frames, can look really something in the right settings, but really large profile frames can still look completely over the top in the wrong settings. I used to have a lot more customers for large profile stacked moulding frames, than I tend to have in more recent times and much of the business for these larger profile frames, comes from the owners of larger period houses. It is particularly the case, that most factory finished frames look a bit too unimportant in a house with moulded trims around the door frame that are in excess of one foot wide. This is largely how I came to specialise in hand finished stacked moulding frames.

I have a sneaking suspicion that tray frames may have original come about as a possible derivative of St Ives style frames and perhaps many of these tray frames were original fabricated from two sections of flat wood fitted together to form a tray frame. I have not always had the best of success, with tray frames mouldings and particularly remember one job, where the tray frame moulding was made from Obeche and I had a terrible amount of wastage, because I kept cutting into sections of snotwood in the moulding. Since then I have usually fabricated my tray frames from flat profile mouldings instead, which makes a lot more sense as the particular mouldings have more that one possible use, making my stock much more versatile and as hand finishing is the natural way of finishing these mouldings, I also have more options when joining the mitres on these frame together.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by vintage frames »

Steve, I'm sorry if I've upset you by what I said. This was meant as no criticism of the work you do nor how you have successfully run your business. My criticism is only directed at the way the pricture framing trade has been presented to the paying public. We all know how to conserve and frame up a customer's chosen artwork, but to then put it in a prefinished frame is a pretence. A pretence that what is given is a carefully crafted item, even though a lot of careful thought and work has gone into mounting and fitting up of the work.
To me, pre-finished mouldings have all the aesthetic value of a turnip. And I won't apologize for saying that.
Some might say that that is all their customers want. Is that not to denigrate their tastes when that is all you're offering to them.
The original post, who is just starting in frameing, expressed an interest in a factory finished moulding. I was just trying to slow them up a bit and think if they could explore the possibility to creating their own mouldings That, to me, would be getting into a much wider craft of REAL picture framing.
I'm not out to piss anyone off. I'm not out to flaunt any superiority. Anyone who takes the time can do what I do, and do it better. But it does provoke an interesting discussion on this forum. And I'll try to keep it friendly. What else is there to do ...
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Bobble »

Wow, nice one Steve.
After 30 years of framing, I only found this site a couple of years ago when trying to (unsuccessfully) sell my little frame shop. Not easy then, even harder now, friends! Happily retired, I still admire Steve's honest, simple approach to queries. Pithy and sensible. My customers chose a package from ready made chevrons of (wooden) mouldings & mounts, often with my help and collected an improved gem, usually with a smile. 4 out of 5 hits, the failures were "I'll think about it" brigade, hoping to find somewhere cheaper! Slimmer frames require less dusting in the 21st century and light oak were favourites for the final few years. Smart and straight forward to price and produce.
We're visiting Bath in October and might call in with a doughnut, if we're spared, Steve. Hope I meet my hero... :clap:
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Adyc »

Thanks all for the replies, to give a bit of perspective, I am primarily a photographer but am rapidly finding framing as satisfying. Both my dad and brother were shipwrights, dad often rose at 4 to light the steamer to steam the wood to shape for a new stem. I’ve got an adze (May be spelt wrong but I know what is)in the shed, though if I use this picture framing I will have gone off piste. I am however no carpenter myself, but am learning.
I appreciate all of the feedback, and am pleased that people feel so passionate about what they do.
I have attached a job I did recently to boost my 88 year old dads spirits when he was in hospital. It is a Seine netter he helped build in Grimsby and now hangs on his wall.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

I am not anti factory finished mouldings at all, but hopefully members will realise that St Ives style framing have the potential to be to some degree, to be put together from what you may have hanging around if you so wish. I was not really expecting this thread to develop into a discussion ofthe merits of hand finished vs factory finished frames.

I'm not all that sure if there was very much actual advice, being given about St Ives frames. Does anyone have any helpful photos that illustrate constructional aspects of St Ives frames that can be discussed as we have not fully addressed the threads original subject.

I am not saying this with my moderators hat on, so please don't take this as an objection to discussing different approaches, or an objection to the hand finished vs factory finished aspects of the discussion, but covering some useful aspects of the original subject of this thread would be nice as well.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by vintage frames »

Well then how's about going to Rose & Hollis and making up a St Ives style frame from say F8, on it's side as the outer rail, F9 on it's back as the centre board and A354 as the inner rebate. Glue them together judiciously and join up to make the frame . Paint it white all over and if that's a bit too boring, glue some rough grade sandpaper onto the center flat and paint over that to give some texture and interest.
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Steve N »

This is the way I do it, sorry can't remember the frame references
IMG_20160924_124030 (1).jpg
20160928_121842.jpg
20160928_125706.jpg
20160929_144537.jpg
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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Not your average framer »

An exellent illustration of how to make a St Ives frame.
Mark Lacey

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Re: St Ives Framing Advice

Post by Adyc »

Love it thanks, the more I see the more I am excited by the making of my own frames. Stay safe all of you.
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