Bendy bevel cuts

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walnutboy
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Bendy bevel cuts

Post by walnutboy »

Hi all,
I’ve started having problems with my bevel cuts in that they are not straight at the start of the cut and this is ruining most mats. I’ve tried doing a little bit of maintenance in tightening all the various parts up, but there was very little play in anything anyway. I’m thinking the blades may be warping a little as a push down but have keencut tech d blades which I thought were pretty good quality. My mount cutter is a c+h advantage pro.
I’d love to hear you thoughts, and if the blades are to blame which should I be using?
I’ve attached a few photos which should explain.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Attachments
DDB2D979-3CBD-4CB1-969D-80183078431C.jpeg
C9633826-7CF0-48E7-8AD8-196AD53D88A9.jpeg
DDBCC3F3-CB45-442B-837D-1AA15EB48107.jpeg
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Steve N
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Steve N »

I think (long time since I used a manual mount cutter ) that those blades might be a bit thin fo modern day dense boards, the 015 are slightly thicker so will not bend / flex so much at the start of the cut, as long as you have the blade depth just right, not too deep, if too deep you will get flexing, the blade should just be scratching the surface of the slipmat.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Not your average framer »

It is not uncommon for movement to occur allowing the mountboard to slip and change position under the main bar of the mount cutter and this can be nothing more than a not quite perfectly flat surface that the mount cutter is standing on. I started off with an earlier C & H mount cutter, which had a much stiffer laminated wood base board which did not flex at all, so the table to that it was being used on did not matter whether it was perfectly flat, or not. Unfortunately, when I upgraded to a Keencut ultimat and used the same table, the slight lack of flatness cause the aluminium base board to flex ver slightly and the cutter bar was no longer making perfect contact everywhere along the length of the mount cutter.

The solution was to correct the lack of flatness on the surface under the mount cutter and this corrected the problem. It is interesting, what Steve says about 0.012" thick blades not being adequate for cutting modern mount board, as I have not found that I always get the best results with 0.012" blades myself, but I do have difficulties with my joints and how my right hand behaves as a result of this. I do know that there are still those, who would say otherwise, but although I have used 0.012" thick blades with older types of mount boards, I find it necessary to use the 0.015" thick single edge bades on the mounts boards that I use now.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by walnutboy »

Thanks for the replies - I’ve ordered some single cut 0.015 blades today so I’ll let you know how I go on once I get started with them.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by cleaver »

Bugger this framing malarkey....I'm going to start a hairdressers called Bendy Bevel Cuts :lol:
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Justintime »

I did buy some 015's at some point, but don't have a problem with 1500-2500 micron boards with them. Any thicker and I'd use the 015's.
Have you checked the depth of your cut into the slip? Could this happen from having the blade cutting too deep? Just a thought...
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Not your average framer »

I only cut into the slip mount very slightly, too deep makes it a lot more effort to make the cut and reduces how many cuts I can get out of the blade, before I need to change the blade. I also have some of the special blades available from Lion with the TIN coated cutting edges and they seem to be quite good and last a long time before getting a bit blunt.

Blades don't need to get very blunt, before causing a hooked start off cut, but you can detect an increase in drag, before this starts to happen. Cheap blades, like Personna blades are made of a more bendable type of steel and also become blunt almost immediately, so it pays to get top class blades every time. Buy cheap, buy twice!
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by pepper »

When cutting modern tough boards, particularly conservation boards on a manual cutter there are a few important factors:

* The cutting head should have minimal (ideally zero) side play or the board will use that loose movement to pull the blade slightly off track and once the blade starts to veer offline it will bend the blade tip so it can continue on its path. Then sometimes, on a large mount, you may find the blade comes back in as the cut progresses, this could be due to your arm/elbow position influencing the attitude of the cutting head as you pull the head towards you.

* Make sure the board is being clamped properly, as has been said before check the surface you have the cutter on is flat and not bent or twisted.

* As mentioned above blade depth is all important, it should just be cutting into the surface of the slipmat. The longer the blade tip the more flexible it becomes and will obviously bend easier. On a side point here, it is often a mistake to think a thicker blade will prevent the blade bending in this situation, a thicker blade should always be the last resort.

* Lastly, but in most cases in most cases has most influence, is blade type. Quality is all important and your Keencut blades are at the top of the scale, so no problem there, but I feel the type is wrong unless you are cutting a comparatively soft board. For most white-core/acid-free boards and especially conservation board they will need a chisel or single edge blade like the Keencut TECH S 012, making sure they are positioned the right way round in the blade holder (you can only use one tip).

Why single edge? imagine cutting a slice of bread with a double edged knife, for the slice to be parallel different things happen either side of the blade. The slice effectively moves away half a blade thickness as the blade cuts and on the loaf side the bread is pushed over or compressed by half a blade thickness so the blade can take a straight path and the slice cut parallel. Now, if the bread was stale and hard it would be more difficult to cut a parallel slice as on the loaf side it would resist being compressed and therefore try to push the blade over half a blade thickness and start it on its way to produce a tapered slice. So to prevent this using a single (chisel) edged blade with the flat side on the loaf side (rather than the slice side) it does not require the loaf to compress at all but it will push the slice away by the full thickness of the blade, which is no problem, and therefore cut parallel. So, tough/hard boards need a single edge blade - but a double edge blade can be used on soft boards (works out cheaper).

What about a thicker blade? When cutting a tough board always use the thinnest blade you can, a thicker blade will try to part the board more as it cuts, put it under more stress and create rub marks on the bevel, particularly at the end of the cut as the blade is retracted. Putting a board under more stress means the blade is under more stress and so is the framer! Using a thin blade (providing it is set up properly) will glide through the board making it easier on your hand/arm/fingers and produce a clean straight cut. The only time I have had to go for a 015 blade is if the board is over 3000 micron but even then this, as in all cases, should be supported by a little experimentation.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by walnutboy »

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ve given the mountcutter a full service, tightened everything, realigned and squared everything back up, installed a new single sided 0.015 blade and the problem seems to have gone away. I think it was probably a culmination of everything and maybe a lack of decent maintenance, but at least it’s sorted now.
Thanks again for tour time and patience.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Justintime »

So, @pepper, am i right in thinking that the loaf is the mount and the slice is the dropout??
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by pepper »

Yes, that's exactly right. The mount is trapped under the cutter bar so it cannot move and is too tough to compress or shrink back like the loaf and the slice bends and moves out of the way by the full blade thickness. If you look closely as you cut you will see the dropout rising as the blade passes.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Justintime »

I cant find an equivalent 12 blade for a fletcher,only a 15,any thoughts?
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by StevenG »

Hi

I've recently had a similar issue to the OP. This was before lockdown, anyway I dropped an email to Keencut and then made a few calls only to be told to check the manual etc etc - really no use at all. Then after we came back I sent off another mail looking for an update, this time I was contacted by Andy and I honestly say I've never had support like it before in my life! Absolutely first class, my faith in humanity, as they say, was restored :) We went through a full recap of the issue on the phone and he even explained the mechanics and history of the whole cutting process which was quite interesting but I digress, after a bit of troubleshooting it appeared that the sliderail had a slight twist meaning that it didn't sit flat on the bed. Even though the majority of their staff are still off work I had a replacement part within a few days.

I've had my cutter for several years now (Futura) and fully expected to pay for any parts and happily offered to cover the costs but it was all covered by Keencut. I'll also add that the first part that arrived was the wrong size but that was entirely my fault for measuring it incorrectly. I made another call and explained my stupidity and within a few days another part arrived, again with no cost to me.

I honestly have never had better service from any other company.
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Re: Bendy bevel cuts

Post by Richard Photofusion »

They realy are in a very small, elite league.

I'd add Rotatrim, and of course uncle Steve.
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