Ancient badly damaged large map

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Hoyvangen
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Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Hoyvangen »

A very large map came into today in a bad state of repair - see attached photos. Estimated to be about 150 years old it is a paper map which is bonded to what might be a fine linen like material. The top part of the map is in an extremely bad state of repair, parts missing, the paper cracking, peeling off the linen, and missing bits. I suggested this might be a job for a conservator before framing but the customer doesn't want to go that route, perhaps because of cost.

It seems to me that I need to repair the top part of this map by affixing (with appropriate adhesive) all the loose map fragments back onto the existing linen (where it still exists) then strengthening that entire top part of the map by bonding it to a brand new piece of linen. I assume I can source the appropriate linen from a company dealing with conservation materials, and likewise an appropriate adhesive that meets conservation standards. I assume this repair process will take some time!

I intend to suspend the map inside the frame using linen conservation tape, I really don't want to attempt to glue this old map since it is, due to its age, unable to lie flat. Not sure what else to say about this job but I'm happy to answer any queries.
Attachments
Map3.jpg
Map2.jpg
Map1.jpg
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Justintime »

As a framer said to me the other day, "we're not magicians!"
This is a restorers job, full stop, in my opinion.
I would send photos to a restorer and ask for an estimate. I use Kate Armor, www.armorpaper.co.uk .
Justin George GCF(APF)
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Justintime »

Ah now I see your other post and you've been framing for 26 years!
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Not your average framer »

To frame without stabilizing it first is pointless. It needs conserving and then mounting on to conservation quality fabric. This is not only a job for a conservator, but probably someone who specialises in difficult jobs like this! This does not want to be restored by just the first conservator you can find. The need a real expert for something like this.

Trying to restore this without understanding how the grain in the paper is going to react over time to changes in humidity is a problem. Not a job to frame with out getting this sorted properly first. If you frame this as it is, you will probably have a disaster on you hands. How are you going to hinge this map, so that the weight of the map does not pull it apart in the frame?
Mark Lacey

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Hoyvangen
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Hoyvangen »

Justintime wrote: Thu 16 Jul, 2020 4:32 pm As a framer said to me the other day, "we're not magicians!"
This is a restorers job, full stop, in my opinion.
I would send photos to a restorer and ask for an estimate. I use Kate Armor, www.armorpaper.co.uk .
A conservator was my first thought but the customer was quite insistent I consider it! I have been considering it all day and it seems more and more something I cannot afford to do, the time involved, not least the learning curve, makes the job quite impractical to fit into a busy framing schedule. Many thanks for your link to Kaye Armor.

Gordon Harrison
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Hoyvangen »

Not your average framer wrote: Thu 16 Jul, 2020 6:20 pm To frame without stabilizing it first is pointless. It needs conserving and then mounting on to conservation quality fabric. This is not only a job for a conservator, but probably someone who specialises in difficult jobs like this! This does not want to be restored by just the first conservator you can find. The need a real expert for something like this.

Trying to restore this without understanding how the grain in the paper is going to react over time to changes in humidity is a problem. Not a job to frame with out getting this sorted properly first. If you frame this as it is, you will probably have a disaster on you hands. How are you going to hinge this map, so that the weight of the map does not pull it apart in the frame?
Thanks for your thoughts Mark, all of which I agree with. I had thought about trying to strengthen the existing linen backing by adding a new one, reattaching the fragmented map pieces, but the more I thought about the task I realised I was on a huge learning curve, a huge amount of time, neither of which I can afford to get involved in with my workload.

Your advice is much appreciated.

Gordon Harrison
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by JFeig »

Gordon,
The customer is trying to make their problem, your problem.
Don't fall for the old line from a customer.... "but, can you just....".
It is a very deep hole for which there is no getting out of.
Cut you losses and just say NO, THAT IS NOT IN THE SCOPE OF MY EXPERIENCE.
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Not your average framer »

Gordon,

I used to be a restorer of vintage and antique books and old manuscripts. It's not a job that you just do. Their is a lot of knoledge, technique, specialist materials, subatances and equipment involved. Restoration work on something like this map, is really difficult and will take an incredible amount of time. Please believe me, this job is way over your head and if you value you reputation, it's much safer to leave jobs like this well alone.

If you frame it, as it is and it falls apart. The customer has good grounds to sue you and seek compensation. You are supposed to know what you are doing. Anyone, who seeks the services of a picture framer, can reasonable expect that picture framer to be an expert at what he is doing and legal courts will consider that to be a reasonable assumption.

If it falls apart and you framed it, your insurance company will go nuts. Why are you getting involved with something outside of your training, knowledge and experience. If it goes to court, there is no defence for undertaking work, where you are clearly not capable of handling the job properly, or safely. Walk away from this one and save your self a lot of griff and heartache.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by prospero »

Rule #23. Don't let someone else's problem become your problem. :wink: :lol:
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Hoyvangen »

Many thanks to all for the helpful and wise replies to my query. I will contact my customer and advise him to consult a conservator. That until conservation work is complete the map is not in a fit state for framing, and that no framer can undertake the specialist work involved.

I am also a photographer and so have taken high resolution photographs of the map, the entire map plus close up images of parts of it, sufficient to see in minute detail the damage and even the linen backing fibres. He can send them to conservators, if he wishes, for quotes/advice, after that it is up to him. Thanks again for all the advice, much appreciated, it is also a weight of my mind! One of the photos I took is of the whole map which I attach just for interest's sake. I tried to find a date on it but to no avail, I assume it might be from the late 19th century.
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DamagedMap-1.jpg
Not your average framer
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Not your average framer »

The fact that the map does not have a date on it, is not only no big surprise, but it's a bit of a clue too1 In the days that I bought and sols stuff like that, which was about 25 to 35 years ago, such maps did not have all that much value, but they may well be worth much more now. It is almost certainly an educational map intended as a teaching aid in schools. They have been around from the victorian era upto the late 1960's. Many of them were glossy on one side and could be wiped clean on that side with care.. The colouring changed quite a bit over the years and if you knew what to look for the coulouring was a big clue to the possible age. Also the earlier ones were coated with some sort of lacquer, but the later ones, were laminated.

Some of the top left hand corner is missing, but otherwise it is not that hard to restore at least most of whats left. If taken to a restorer to get it fixed you are probably looking at about £200 to £300, but even after restoration you would probably be hard pushed to find a buyer for it and if you were able to find a buyer for it, it is probably worth no more than £50 to £75. Items like this still turn up in local house clearance auctions, they create a big of interest on viewing days, but they are not popular items the displaying family homes anymore, so they usually don't find a buyer. They are often not particularly rare and not really much sought after. They deteriorate very easily if stored somwhere that's damp, it's rare to see them framed.
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Justintime »

Ok, so if it's of no commercial value, a common to find object, special enough for the customer to want to frame it but not enough to restore it...
Why not mount it using a cold roll laminator, onto a suitable board. Removing the wood bar first, obviously, which could be added back into the piece after mounting. It could be matt laminated on top, to prevent further loss of detail in the future and the laminate will give it 99% UV protection and not even require glazing afterwards. An affordable solution? Purse and Pigs ear come to mind..
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Not your average framer »

I would dry mount it on to linen. I would not the hard to do and since it is not of any worthwhile value. What's the risk? However I would use a roller laminator, or a dry mounting press, but carfully iron it down with a piece of mount board and a domestic iron, as it would enable me to get all the partially separates bits down properly.

It probably would look quite good, especially if mounted on to unbleached linen, or linen with a pale brown tint. The pale brown linen would look in keeping with the rest of the map and it would fill in the area of missing map in the top corner. The whole item could the be dry mounted onto mount board and then framed. I think that it could look quite nice.

Getting it to iron down flat is a thing that demands a bit of skill. There is a bit of technique to it. I've done it before on difficult things and I've even ironed things flat, before try to dry mount them.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by JFeig »

I would suggest the the customer conduct an internet search for a suitable replacement of better quality (ex: Ebay)
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Re: Ancient badly damaged large map

Post by Not your average framer »

Some of the customers who buy stuff like this to be in not quite decent condition. I've even framed some old school maps, which have a lot more of the origin map missing that that. One of my best customers, for framing stuff like that wanted them to hang in a pub. All kind of strange stuff get framed to go in pubs.

There was a time when framing stuff to go in pubs was regular business, but it's been gradually dropping off for the last 15 years of so, untill it's almost a thing of the past. I also used to frame stuff for guest houses at one time, but that does not happen anymore. More often than not, when a pub changes hands, these days. The new tenant trawl round a few house clearance auctions a bids on whayever takes his fancy. It's mostly old rubbish.
Mark Lacey

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