Getting the darn thing square!

[gordie]

Evening folks!

I got myself a well-used Morso guillotine and some kind of super vintage Charnwood underpinner a couple of weeks ago. God knows how old they are - when was the first Morso produced? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a Mark 1 model!

I've been reading the forum, picking up some great tips and spending hours getting both machines cleaned, oiled and back in to operation.

I got the blades back from sharpening recently and have the Morso producing nice 90 degree joins (albeit with the left fence offset quite a bit compared to the right - not sure if this is correct or compensating for an issue elsewhere?)

My main problem is joining the four pieces together. My closest set of results are:

Corner 1: 90
Corner 2: 90.1
Corner 3: 90.2
Corner 4: 89.8

I'm just wondering if this is a setup issue, or just my technique on the underpinner that needs to improve?

Any tips gratefully received!

All the best
Gordie

[Not your average framer]

I am frankly amazed that you expext to be able to set up you Morso to that level of digital accuracy. Working to that level of accuracy in wood normally never happens. Most of us yet set up our Morso's in the time honoured way of get getting rid of the gaps in the corner joints. It is probably worth mentioning that regardless how accurate you Morso may be, how your underpinner is set up can still throw the whole thing out.

It is worth mentioning that when the underpinner inserts the edges in to a corner joint there will be a slight swelling caused by the thinkness of the wedge and that will probably register as a deviation of the angle at each corner. Most of the rest of use don't rely on being able to measure the squareness of each corner, because quite frankly it does not accually matter. All that really matters is do your corner joints have gaps or not!

The big problem with how you are doing things is the fact that the wood of the mouldings has a bit of springiness and there is a slight springiness in how the wood slightly moves away from the blades as they cut the moulding. Also not all moulding will cut exactly the same as every other moulding type and as the blades are getting slightly dull, it can be neccessary to readjust the angle slightly. Most of us have a pretty good feel for getting this right. How are you going to get the same feel for minutely adjusting this while adjusting you Morso with some kind of digital gauge?

Do you actually believe that each length of moulding will always be so totally accurately straight to the level of accuracy which make such a degree of measurement as meaning full as you think. It's not possible to machine wood to that level of accuracy, even slight changes in humidiy will change things while the moulding are sitting in the warehouse, or in the back of the delivery van.

[gordie]

Hey man - thanks for the reply!

But now I feel guilty about chasing perfection.

My joints are coming out beautifully, it's just on a long run of say 1 metre if the angle is out I'm worried you might be able to notice by eye.

I was thinking about this post last night after I written it. Looking at the numbers on the screen, it did look like I might be asking too much - haha!

I just added them up and the total is 360.1 which I guess you're saying for a human operating mechanical machinery with a filthy mistress such as unpredictable wood then this should be totally acceptable?

[Not your average framer]

As you get used to things, you eyes will get really sharp at noticing lots of things. The old saying that practice make perfect is very ture is this instatance. There is a mechanism built in to our brains that cause new neural pathways to grow in our brains, which are optimised to enable us to get better at tasks which end up doing repetitively and it does not take long for these things to happen. We've all got this and it's works for each one of us.

Just remember that the more we do something the better we get at doing it. Enjoy!

[Gesso&Bole]

Breaking News!

Not all of the pictures you frame will be square, and not all of the moulding will be straight!

Assuming your Morso is cutting at approximately the right angle, the skill is in pulling the joins together and underpinning in such a way that they stay that way. Upmarket underpinners have clamps and fence adjustments to assist with this, the more basic models require a bit of brute force to twist and hold the joint in the right position.

[gordie]

Why is this feeling so condescending, gents?

I've been making AND SELLING framed artwork for years. My previous method being a mitre saw and band clamps.

We're making AND SELLING so many now that I wanted to improve our quality of production, hence the purchase of the Morso and underpinner.

I fully understand the nature of wood as I make my own mouldings from scratch. My previous frames are always bang on 90 all round.

I suspect it's a technique issue with the underpinner and was just looking to confirm that and maybe pick up a tip or two.

Didn't expect any BREAKING NEWS.

All the best
Gordie

[vintage frames]

I've looked at your website and I do admire what you're making - and selling.
If you've sorted out the morso then don't fret too much about the underpinner. As long as the top surfaces of the frames are all flush and the mitres correct then if it was me, I'd bung it in the underpinner with just one wedge to hold it all together and then wrap the band clamp on for a really tight join whilst the glue dries.
A band clamp costs £10. Buy 10 or 20 if you make that many frames in a day.
As you do make your own mouldings, maybe shy away from the too perfect look and aim for a softer overall appearance. Ie, not too many sharp edges or corners.
I think your frames will look magnificent on the wall.

[Gesso&Bole]

Not meaning to offend . . . just trying to help in a light-hearted way.

Sorry if you found my comments condescending

[Not your average framer]

It's sometimesa problem will people chatting on the internet, that some of us are not sure where each other are coming from and people feel that so one is being disrespectful and people get upset. The trouble is that we can't see each other face to face and reading what each other mean when we say things can get misconstrued. I think that is what has just happened guys. This is one of the reason why we have rule number one which says " be nice".

As most people can probably easily imagine, we got a lot of very creative members on the forum and creative people are often very talented and can be quite sensitive to what then might be view as criticism. It is therefore not surprising that there are times when things get taken in unintented ways, with unfortunate results. I don't think this was intended as being condesending and as a moderator I have seen many such unfortunate insident like this where something was taken in an unintended way and I think that this was all that this incident was.

I hope that all concerned will be able to understand this and move on.

[gordie]

Hey - no worries guys!

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to cause any drama. I haven't used an internet forum for a long time and totally forgot about how things can come across sometimes in the written word.

I do really appreciate you guys taking the time to reply. From the way it looks, I might be coming at my new kit from the wrong angle (gorgeous pun!)

I've been setting my mitre saw to 45, cutting my mouldings and gluing up with a band clamp for years with great accuracy. As we have gotten busier I decided to try a second (third fourth fifth??!) hand Morso and underpinner to improve the process.

In my mind I was getting a machine that would cut double 45s with engineered accuracy, and then an underpinner with a 90 degree fence where I join them together with some glue and frame done! I anticipated a learning curve and quite a bit of set up, but in my head I thought that once that was achieved I'd be banging out perfect frames all day every day and my mitre saw and band clamps can rest in pieces!

From the replies I've had I feel like I might need to adjust my expectations?

I'm trying to get my head around not worrying about the angle, but just that there is no gap. The joins are coming out perfectly to the eye - I can't get over how crisp that cut is!! But isn't it true that you could have a join with no gap and it be out like 5 degrees or so, in which case you're going to have a wonky frame? -----> (This is probably the part where it's cool to answer as if I was a four-year-old! )

[Not your average framer]

A Morso is not necessarily all about accuracy, but was originally created to make a time consuming job much quicker. The accuracy depends up on how we set things up. I dare say that different people set things up in the way that works best for them. In bygone times, there was not very much emphasis of accurate measurement equipment being available and we have largely inherited the old way of doing tasks like this. We are a very traditional lot you know, not that thats a virtue.

[Gesso&Bole]

You may just be overthinking this. If all four corners are joined well, and the moulding is not warped, then you will have a square frame.

I can’t say I have ever measured the angles, but neither have I ever had a frame that wasn’t square (to my eye, and the Customer)unless one of the rails was the wrong length.

Most picture framers incorporate a few mm wriggle room in the size to ensure that the glass will go in smoothly so perhaps that’s where we hide some hitherto unbeknown inaccuracies.

So much of the moulding that we work with has kinks and twists in it that I certainly won’t be upping my stress levels by purchasing a digital protractor!

[Steve N]

I'm supprised nobody has gone on about getting the right hand fence inline with the right hand arm,with the measuring scale, using a straightedge along the measuring arm onto the right hand fence, get that in line, then move the straightedge to the left, so it's against the right hand arm and right hand fence, than adjust the left hand fence so the whol lot are in line. The thing is not to get the fences at 45%, because one side can be 44 and the other is 46, just as long as they add up to 90. if you try and get the fences at 45 to the blades, then the measuring arm (right hand side) might not be in line, so yo will bending the moulding when you cut it