First Underpinner

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Zacpatsalides
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First Underpinner

Post by Zacpatsalides »

Good afternoon,

I hope you’re well. Up to this point I’ve been making frames with hand tools and I’m looking to get an underpinner as I find it difficult with curved or funny shape mouldings.

My budget is around £500. Any recommendations? Any to steer clear of?

Thanks :)
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi,

I guessing that maybe your budget is a bit of an indicator that your needing to operate on limited finances at the moment. I know what that's like and that's how I got started. Lots of the better known brands and models of underpinners are likely to be either more than your budget will stand, of they will take up a large amount of that budget. Some you either go for the best and most up to date machine that you can find as secondhand within that budget, or you go for a an older, but sound and robust work horse, which is not quite so exciting, but saves you a useful amount of money.

Whichever way you decide to go is your decision, but I'll make a few suggustions and you see if they make sense to you, or not.

First is the newer and probably more expensive route and it is likely to be a second hand basic manual Cassesse underpinner, such as maybe a second hand CS-79. They are a fairly basic machine and work quite well, but are also very easy to maintain and work up on. I had one of these when I first got started and they sold as new back then (20 years ago), for about £700 as new. So obviously a second hand one today is likely to be within your budget, but it will gobble up a reasonable part of your budget. I'm assuming that there is still good spares availablity, but it well worth checking this to be sure.

Secondly there are a few older and largely un-breakable older underpinners, which are not very much sought after these days and they tend to be quite cheap when they are sold as second hand. Forget about spares, they are long gone, but I'm talking about agricultural type engineering, which is made to last forever and it's extremely unlikely that you will ever need any spares and if something serious goes wrong, then you can always buy another (that are generally dirt cheap) and keep the old one for spares for it's replacement.

The underpinner which most comes to mind is a manual Pistaurius. It does not use an operating cable to transfer the pedal movement to the rest of the machine, but has something like a bicycle chain. That is except for the fact that you won't be able get get a chain to fit this from a bicycle shop. Chain stretch a bit over the years and the sprocket wheel which the chain drives will show a little wear over the years, but none the less these bits just keep on going. The sprocket operates the top clamp arm in to which is fitted the top pressure clamp pad and you screw this in and out to set the top clamp pad to come down level onto the top of the frame that you are joining.

It won't look all high tech and wizzy, but there are built like tanks and are pretty much un-breakable and generally dirt cheap to buy as second hand. As far as I know they only take 10mm and 7mm unviversal wedges, but that all that framers used in those days, but you can still stack wedges if you need bigger than that. I've advised people to buy Pistaurious underpinners before and they have been happy enough with them.

Others on this forum will have other suggestions as well, so check them out as well and pick as many brains as you can.
Best wishes,
Mark.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Gesso&Bole »

I've got a fully working Pistorius underpinner available if anyone is looking for one. £100 ono collected from Nottingham. There's even a box of wedges to go with it!
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi jeremy,

They are great aren't they?
Mark Lacey

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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Justintime »

I'd go for a Cassese CS88 foot operated. You can pick a good one up for £200-400. Great simple machines. As long as you have a set of spares on hand for when something eventually goes, it'll last for years.
Someone mentioned a few pneumatics for sale yesterday between £400-800.
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi justin,

Just out of interest, the mechanism in the Cs-79 and the CS-88 are more, or less the same mechanism. I upgraded from my CS-79 to a CS-88 and still use a CS-88 even now. Great machines!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Zacpatsalides
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Zacpatsalides »

That’s awesome, thanks so much for the replies me I really appreciate the detail. I have looked at the CS88 and that’s what I was leaning towards but hadn’t considered the Pistorious. What’s the advantage of going for something like the Cassese? Does it have more functions or is it just a bit sleeker?

I saw a Morso one the other day for £500 and wish I’d bought it. It seems to be quite popular.

Best Regards
Zac
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Justintime »

I've not met anyone who rates the Morso underpinner. I believe that it works foot operated but with air rather than a cable.
Pneumatic would be best but it's down to budget.
There are some mentioned on a post in the ads section yesterday, post was "WANTED pneumatic underpinner", including a Cassese cs20 ex demo from Wessex pictures for £600. It sounds like a steal, which is unusual for Wessex!
I started with a CS1 and absolutely hated it, I eventually realised that it wasn't me, it was actually the machine that was sh*t, so I've stayed away from new style Cassese machines. I moved on to a very old CS88 which was awesome and then a Cassese 486, a proper machine and a bit overspecced for my workload but amazing. I kept and still use the CS88 for tiny mouldings and spacers.
My advice would be don't buy one without a demo and a practice on it yourself. If it's pneumatic make sure its had a recent service or factor it in to the price.
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

The CS-88 will take wedges in Cassesse plastic cartridges in the following sizes. 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 7mm, 10mm, 12mm and 15mm. It also looks more modern. Lots of framers use Cassesse. It's a very popular brand and quite easy to re-sell if you later decide to upgrade to a more upmarket machine. It is of course a very personal choice and I was taking care just to present some possible options in an unbiased way.

If money is not much of an issue, most forum members would probably go for the CS-88. I've had two of these over the years and like them very much, but it's your choice needs to be carefully considered.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Zacpatsalides
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Zacpatsalides »

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the options, I appreciate it. I’m tempted to save the cash and go for something like the pistorious but I think I’m going to go for the Cassesse 79 or 88. It should be more than enough for a few years.

I’m sure you’ll be hearing from me again as I am a true novice but I’m enjoying the learning journey
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

I don't think that you will regret the decision. Both the CS-79 and the CS-88 are good machines. The CS-88 will acommodatre larger mouldings as havs adjustable fences too, so it's technically the more capable machine, if there's not much difference in price between a socond hand CS-79 and a second hand CS-88. I've had both at different times and I always preferred the CS-88.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Zacpatsalides
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Zacpatsalides »

Hi Mark,

Does this look a decent deal to you? It comes with a few extra things. Can’t wait to start using one!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114635631177

Thanks
Zac
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Justintime »

The CS88 has adjustable fences, which can be really useful, the CS79 doesn't...
Justin George GCF(APF)
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Mark, Does this look a decent deal ... using one!

I don't know what currently is the usual going rate for buying one of these, so I can't really advise you regarding value for money, but the triangular support table on the CS-79 is made of thin fibre glass reinforced plastic, which the same bit of the CS-88 is a really solid aluminium casting and cannot sag at all, whereas the one of the CS-79 does have a bit of flex.

I never found this a problem, but perhaps the flex gives a little bit more over the years. I'm hoping that someone can advise about the price of the CS-79 on ebay. Very often prices on ebay can be more than on the forums wants and sales section. How does this CS-79 compare regarding price when looking at CS-88 prices? If there's not a lot of difference, then I would go for a CS-88, which is very solid, durable and built like a tank.

I think you would have a hard time trying to break a CS-88. They are really a seriously tough and solid machine!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Zacpatsalides
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Re: First Underpinner

Post by Zacpatsalides »

Picking up a CS88 and a Keencut Artist Plus. Very excited. Thanks for all your help
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