New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

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BrianTJ
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New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by BrianTJ »

Hi,
I am brand new to the framing world, and had a sure belief that there should not be many problems in a 90 degree joint. however, I have had some issues that I think stem from my underpinnings. The corners of the frame can be assembled perfectly on a table, but when I put a clip in, I see a small gap, the same length as the clip is, if I slide the clip in from the front of the frame, then the problem is moved to the front of the frame , and therefore I do not think it is due to the cut of the frame.
as I said, I am brand new to this world and all the help, tips and anything else I can get will be greatly appreciated.

my underpinner is an AMP U-400. I use the original "power twist" clips, I have "soft" and "medium" clips, and I have generally only done tests with soft, since my frames are soft, I have 6,5 bar into the machine, from the compressor system, and I have set the machine to anything between 2 and 6,5 bar during different tests, but I did not think there are any regularities in the joints. my current frame size is 15mm wide and 20-25mm high.

thanks in advance.
from a new frame maker.
Attachments
backside of frame
backside of frame
cut before underpinning
cut before underpinning
Some tests
Some tests
The Hammer - should it come this far up?
The Hammer - should it come this far up?
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Gesso&Bole
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Gesso&Bole »

Morning Brian, and welcome to the Forum.

Have you tried putting just 1 wedge in each corner?

All of the underpinner manufacturers show putting lots of wedges in, because they sell wedges, and are keen for more repeat business. I find that too many wedges pushes the corner apart, and in that size of moulding would use a good quality glue, and one wedge, slightly closer to the inside edge than the outside.

Let us know how you get on

Jim
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Justintime »

Hi Brian,
These look great!
Do you have adjustable fences? If so try tilting the fence a tiny bit back.
Try placing the front wedge as close to the front inside as possible and place your back wedge a tiny bit further forward. If you are leaving these as barewood find a wood filler that matches.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Brian and welcome to the forum,

Well, you have not done badly so far and some small gaps as shown in your pictures are not all that unusual. Some softer wood types will compress a little to accomodate the extra thickness of the inserted wedges, or clips as you call them, but many types of wood do not compress enough to avoid the small gaps appearing as a result of the wood swelling due to the added thickness resulting from the thickness of the wedge material. This does not necessarily mean that you've done something wrong at all.

Some mouldings are suppled with a manufacturers factory finish of one sort, or another and in such cases it is quite usual to fill the gap with a colour matching filler, these are typically supplied in small tubes or tins by picture framing trade suppliers. Most picture framers will have a suitable range of different colours of these fillers to suit their needs. Some framers prefer to use bare wood (unfinished) picture frame mouldings and sometimes it is possible to mix different colours of these coloured fillers to match well with the natural colour of the wood, even just to fill the gaps with a little wet PVA glue and sand the bare wood a little, so that the saw dust (which is the same colour) mixes with the clear drying wood glue to fill and hide the gap.

There is nothing particularly unusual about needing to do this at all, but it might take you a little practice at first.
Best wishes.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Romanf345 »

As others have stated these look quite good….just need a little tweaking.

One thing I like to do is pre glue the corners in a vise….then put the v nails in. Also, I eliminate the front pneumatic clamp because I have found that it can pull apart the glued corners. And I think it is not needed if the corners are already glued up tight.

My two cents! :D :D :D
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Correct use of pneumatic clamps may require some practice and perhaps a little fine tuning, dfferent aspects of different underpinners can need different methods with different mouldings. It's often a bit of a learning curve, so there can be things to learn, I've been framing for about 23 years and I'm still learning.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Brian,

I don't regard your pictures of a joined corner as being all that bad, many of my own corners are quite similar, so don't conclude that yours are really bad. For an early attempt, being new to framing you are doing well. I should point out that cutting and jioning different moulding can sometime vary a little and joinning moulding produced from harder woods can be more problematic for all of us anyway. So don't take things to bad, as you have done quite well so far.

Mark.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by prospero »

I would be pleased to have got them as good as that. :clap:

As said previously, clamping the corners and gluing first is the only way if you want them super tight, but you have
a lot more labour and if you are doing a quantity you need a lot of clamps. Also, I never like the idea of pinning after
the glue has set. It can actually break the glue bond.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by BrianTJ »

Thanks for the reply everyone.
I had probably hoped to be able to make them completely tight, without the use of glue. but it must, of course, be considered whether this is the path needed.
If I have to get closer to a tight joint, is it my underpinner or Morso cuts I should look at?
thanks again!
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Romanf345 »

You have to glue the joints….v nails hold the joint together until the glue dries. Your cuts are great so the morso cuts look good.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by vintage frames »

I'd say it's always the Morso cut. The underpinner just joins up what you have cut.
You're holding the moulding down as best you can when cutting. Even the slightest wobble can throw things off.
Clean the underside of the moulding with some fine sand paper and use only a shaving cut as your final cut.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Justintime »

This may be a first, but I have to disagree with Dermot! I'm my (much less) experience there are far more variables in underpinning than in cutting on the Morso. For this reason many people glue and clamp overnight before underpinning. The risk is always that underpinning may break the glue joint and it takes more time. Some woods and even different batches of the same wood can react differently.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by vintage frames »

Who is this person? How dare he. Moderator - can we have him cancelled?

Yes there's variables in both the processes. Lots of wobble opportunities.
My point is that it's more important to get the cut right, as that is an absolute and having a really true cut means less wobble work with the underpinner.
Mind you I could never see the point in having underpinner clamps. What's wrong with holding firm the moulding as you operate the underpinner. Or am I missing something?
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Romanf345 »

Justintime wrote: Sat 11 Sep, 2021 4:13 pm This may be a first, but I have to disagree with Dermot! I'm my (much less) experience there are far more variables in underpinning than in cutting on the Morso. For this reason many people glue and clamp overnight before underpinning. The risk is always that underpinning may break the glue joint and it takes more time. Some woods and even different batches of the same wood can react differently.
I agree with you, glue until it dries, then nail it. With the awesome glues out there the problem is not that glue breaks, but they are strong that to take them apart you often damage the wood. I have doing the glueups first for many years and cannot remember the last time One broke when nailing.
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Re: New to framing - Corner gap, maybe underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

I find it very difficult to be so hard and fast about whether it is best to let the glue set before underpinning, as there can be situations where different issues come in to play. One such situation is when joining deep box frames and keeping the front face of the frame nice and tight, with no gaps. I like my deep box frame mouldings to be deep enough to be able to use a band clamp on the portion of the frame, which is above the fences on the underpinner.

The clamp can be afterwards left in place while the glue sets. I would also point out that some of these modern wood glues are designed to expand to fill gaps and if a band clamp is used the pressure caused by this expansion process will force some of the glue to penetrate the open structure of the end grain of the wood adding extra strength.
Mark Lacey

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