Help wanted with quote

[Teresa]

I've been asked to quote for 50 mirrors.60cm x 180cm, Firstly is Bret 0015 strong enough ? I will be using corner brackets ! & 3mm safety backed mirror. I was thinking of glass x 2 and materials x 3 is that enough (my overheads are low ) There are also 106 frames, 80cm x80cm finnished size, with single mount,problem is they are all textile. I think I will be using 3mm foam board ! molding will be K98 I have no idea how to price these, How much discount should I give there are 180 framed textiles all together, the rest are smaller ! I will be very gratefull for any advice on pricing,

[Graysalchemy]

There are a couple of questions I need to ask. Firstly is this for a hotel? Hotels are notoriously tight on budget and budget may get cut before you get to do the job, if you think about it wall decoration is the last thing to go in and last thing to be paid.

Assuming this is a hotel second question, are you dealing with the end user or are you dealing with one of the contractors ie a bric a brac supplier. If you are then they are going to add 50%. This will have bearing on what you charge.

I do this on a regular basis my main business. I usually price a job by working out exactly how much moulding will be used ie 800 x 800 you will only get 3 sides out of a length 1 mount out a sheet and also the same with glass and back. I would consider using plastic mouldings to stay competitive. I usually then use a 3 x markup more if I can get away with it. Give them an option in both wood and plastic.

Safety backed mirror is a must but you will probably get away without corner braces as the mirrors should be fixed directly to the wall in which case the weight will b supported by brackets on the sides and bottom.

Finally have you got the space and facilities to carry this out I doubt you will get a lot of lead time the quote may well go in months ahead but in my experience you will not get the order until they are ready to fit. I have two phases of a hotel to do 32 rooms which I have been given 3 weeks notice unfortunately I am away for 2 so I will have 3 days to do the job when I get back.

Oh and finally I have assumed this is leisure and hospitality industry related do not fit the job unless you have the relevent insurance and skill, normal public liability insurance will not cover you for it.

I hope that helps.

Alistair

[Teresa]

Thanks Alistair, I'ts a interior designer, I did a big job for them last year.no problem getting paid. I've got untill october to get them done,last year it was a smaller job but only 3 weeks to do it, I got it done but felt I under charged, it was roughley materials x 3,but I did not charge extra for messing around with textiles.

[Not your average framer]

Why are you using foamboard, when you are worried about being able to give yourself a good enough profit margin? There are alternatives!

[Roboframer]

mirrors.60cm x 180cm, Firstly is Bret 0015 strong enough ?

I heard he's been working out, so maybe

You're assuming too much - I know these are Simons mouldings but not everyone will and you can't exactly go to their website and put the references in a search if you did know, there isn't the facility. (I have tried looking though and I can't find it - must have been introduced since 2004 )

You'd do better by stating the dimensions and type of wood, and if it's the moulding I'm thinking of, (will check tomorrow) the answer is a big fat NO! Not for a heavy mirror fractionally short of 6x2ft! In fact not for anything that size, I know it's probably going to be screwed to the wall but all the internal weight is still only supported by the bottom rail, plus they have to be transported and handled.

As for costing, it's a minefield, no-one can really answer your question because there are too many variables - I could tell you how much I'd charge at 'best price' but I might do them quicker (or slower) and be paying less (or more) for the same materials, and/or I could need the work less (or more) and be more willing to write off some labour because it's only me and there's nout on telly anyway, and even if there was, watching it wouldn't be earning me anything ........ etc.

If you had one of each of these jobs to do (and they aren't exactly 'projects' anyway and really should be covered in whatever pricing system you use), would you be able to give a price on the spot?

If so, work from that, taking in to account any discounts you may get for quantity from your suppliers and the time saved - i.e. - to make one may take 30 mins, but it won't take an hour to make two the same; maybe you could push out 5 per hour.

What sort of things are the 'textiles'?

[prospero]

If you have been asked to quote, then it's a fair assumption that the customer is getting other quotes. This sounds like a tasty job, but if you pitch too low you could end up doing a lot of work for peanuts. You may even end up out of pocket.
Working out a price based on materials mark-up isn't the best way IMHO. Work out the cost of materials that you realistically would expect to consume (not what ends up in the finished product). Then work out how long it realistically would take you to build them and work out a figure based on your hourly fixed overheads for what it costs you to build them. Are you doing this single handed? Good luck if you are, but if not add on what you charge for staff labour. (not what you pay them). Omit nothing. It's easy to dismiss small sundry items as 'only a few pence', but on a job this size all the pennies mount up. Take the corner brackets. They are what..... about 20p each. Thats 200 - nigh on 50 quid with vat and carriage.
Fixing the brackets. Four screws in each one? 16 screws per frame.... 800 screws. Then you have to fix them in. Do one every ten seconds and that's the best part of 2 1/2 hours. Are you fixing wall plates to the backs? That's about the same. But the thing is, you aren't a robot. In practice it's going to take a lot longer. Even the time wrapping them up for safe transport is going to take a goodly amount of time. (Don't forget packaging materials).
Then there is the factor of the sheer bulk of the frames. 50 6x2 framed mirrors are going to occupy a big chunk of real estate. You need somewhere to stack the things safely once they are completed.

When you have worked out a figure, add on your profit. Only you can decide this figure. I'd say you have at least a weeks hard yakka there, maybe more. (how long do you think it would take you just to unpack all the materials and dispose of the packaging???)

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious. I'm just saying it all too easy to get ££££ signs before your eyes when you get a big order and get a shock when you actually come to grips with the practicalities. Any fool can work themselves to a frazzle and just about break even. If someone undercuts you, let them work for peanuts.


ps.

If possible it would be a good idea to make one frame and do a sort of time and motion study on yourself. If you haven't used the moulding before this would be an extremely good idea.

And whatever price you quote, get a hefty up-front non-refundable payment.

[Graysalchemy]

And whatever price you quote, get a hefty up-front non-refundable payment.

Dream on 60 - 90 days is more likely.

As I have said in many posts before this type of job is about efficiency and banging them out that way you get it done quickly and you may also make a bit of profit. Another thought I always work out an economical size. It may well be (but probably not in this case looking at the dimensions) that if they lose 50mm of a frame you can get 2 mounts out of a board or 4 lengths out of a length of moulding. Give them a quote for both but only drop the price of the economical size so that it is attractive to them but more profitable to you, don'tgive them all the savings keep some back for yourself.

I take it by textile you mean a nice bit of fabric. I would be tempted to stretch over sticky board as it will be quicker and no need to tape the back the trim and stick into a mount.

My final top tip on this is to make all you components then assemble the 'artwork' into the mount, then make a glass mount back sandwich. Then when you have a reasonable batch put them into frame. If it is for a commercial job ie hotel offices etc and not residential I wouldn't bother tapping the backs and staple with an air stapler to save time. This is were you will need to organise your space unless you have a big workshop like me. It is not easy doing these big contract jobs and on paper perhaps not so rewarding but when you have done it you will get a great sense of achievement. Just think when you are doing it it will be the only thing that keeps you going.

Alistair

[Jonny2morsos]

Because you got paid OK last time don't assume the same will happen this time. Unfortunately it tends to be the person/organisation at the top of the chain who dictates the terms and you are at the opposite end of the chain.

I did a job early in the year through an interior designer aquantance and it turned out their client enforced 60 days payment. I bought a lot of materials on 30 days so I was way out of pocket for a month.

They came back to me for some more and I insisted on 21 days - have not heard from them again!

[prospero]

Another thing when making biggish frames is you can waste a heck of a lot if the length of the lengths doesn't quite fit in with the job. If all the moulding came in 8ft lengths then you are only going to get one long side out of a length and a bit left that isn't long enough to do a short side.
100 long lengths with maybe 20" offcut = 180ft lost in little bits. You can always rely on 10ft lengths.(which would be the ideal in this case).

[Roboframer]

Roboframer wrote:
And whatever price you quote, get a hefty up-front non-refundable payment.

Dream on 60 - 90 days is more likely.

Here's someone else who needs help with quotes - I didn't say that!

[Graysalchemy]

Not at all Robo it is just the nature of commercial framing, if you don't give the credit they will not give you the work on a regular basis. Most of my clients I have worked with for 10+ years. However any new clients I insist on payment on delivery and/or a deposit.

[prospero]

I think Robo was alluding to the ventriloquial nature of the quote.

[Graysalchemy]

Are those are big words but I see what you are saying. I tink that is down to the technical department on that. If you highlight what you want to quote and then hit the quote button that is what happens. Its is them gremlins again, I must say they probably are GCFGremlins

[Roboframer]

Ah - I wondered how it had happened - you highlighted what you wanted to quote in Prosp's post but must have hit the quote button in mine.

[Graysalchemy]

I am Ambidextrous like that

[prospero]

Thank You Alistair for giving me the opportunity to use the word 'ventriloquial'. I mean that most sincerely.

[Graysalchemy]

What's tomorrows word going to be?

perhaps

Hippopotomonstrosesquippediliophobia

or

Entredentolignumologist

Alistair

[Teresa]

Thanks for all your advice, They have let me know their budget ! the whole job 180 frames and 50 mirrors work out at just under materials x 3 Im happy with that and so are they, Im looking forward to working late to loud music and having a busy august

[Graysalchemy]

Well done, now all you need to do is get some discounts. Tell your rep there a two moulding choices and the customer will go with the cheaper so it is in their interest to give you best price. I know for a fact moulding suppliers are looking after contract framers as they see this as a growth area.

Good luck with the late nights. What will the music be?

Cheers

Alistair