Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

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Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby A Few More Words » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:44 pm

We have a request for some large frames over 3m long x 2m wide. As most of the moulding lenghts we buy in are typically only up to 3m , I guess were going to have to look at joining some together for both long sides of the frame. Does anyone have experience doing this successfully & what are the issues ? Will it be better to do a butt joint or a 45 degree one. We havent attempted to join any yet but are planning to try a butt joint and use the Hoffman router / wedges etc.
Welcome any input on this.

Thanks
Tom
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby JFeig » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:03 pm

Hard woods (oak, maple, cherry) generally come in random lengths, some being over 3 m long. Check with your distributor to find out what they have in stock.
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby prospero » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:12 pm

:D I was only talking to a fellow member about this very subject yesterday. :roll:

I've only done this on plain moulding - the better to blend to join. And not something anywhere near that scale.

I did it by inserting a splint. With a table saw (with parting knife and safety guards removed) I cut a groove about
1" deep into the ends to be joined. Bigger moulding you can get multiple grooves. A router table would be better
but I ain't got one. Then glue a wooden strip into the groove. The strip should be a 'nice' fit. I used staples on the
inside and back of the moulding as a temp clamp to hold the two faces in alignment.
Trying to get a perfect alignment is next to impossible so I wouldn't try this on finished moulding. Even on plain
moulding it takes a lot of sanding an fiddling about the conceal the join. It may look better on some finishes, but anything
with a flat, plain surface - forget it.
The joint will be reasonably strong, but on a large frame it would need to reinforced with a flat piece of timber fixed to the back.

As I mentioned, I would not contemplate doing anything of this sort of size using finished moulding. The sheer scale and weight
of the thing would mean that it's going to pick up a knock here and there. One ding on a factory-finished moulding might easily
mean a complete write-off. Veeeery expensive. :|

I need hardly mention the access and transportation issues. :lol:
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby A Few More Words » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:30 pm

Thanks for inputs

The requirement at the moment is on finished moulding.

Might be one best to avoid !!

Maybee well go back to client first to see could we work within the constraint of 3m overall outside length .

I agree if it was a raw wood to be hand finished we would have much more latitude. Perhaps well see what finished moulding they prefer and then see could we create something similar from available raw wood mouldings.

Will do some experimenting next week.

Thanks
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Not your average framer » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:55 pm

I'm not that keen on joining lengths of moulding together end to end, but if I had to, my preference would be to make the frame as a stacked moulding frame. This would enable me to join the different mouldings in places where a join in one moulding would not coincide with a join in the other moulding.

For something as big as we are discussing, I would be hoping to persuade the customer to agree to a triple stacked moulding, so that every join can be overlapped by two other continuous lengths of moulding. BTW, my stacked mouldings are glued together right along the lengths of the mouldings for maximum strength.

Don't forget that big frames like that need plenty of strength and plenty of support. Experience suggests solid backing boards, sub frames and braces.
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Jamesnkr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:05 am

If you use a factory-finished moulding it will look rubbish. There is no other way; you have a darned great join in the middle of an edge. Of course, if that's what the client wants then give it to him.

So you will have to use bare-wood. Cut the joins at 45 degrees. This is because you have a way to cut wood at a precise 45 degree angle; when it comes to 90 degrees you would not have the equipment to do it accurately. And, like Mark says, stack your mouldings with the joins off centre.

On Vintage Frames's recommendation I have used his combo of Rose & Hollis's A24 sitting on top of A45 (the latter turned on its side). Fits almost like a glove. And glue a rope twist on top of the 'sight edge' of A45 to finish it off. No need to stack three mouldings in this example. Prices are long out of date, by the way. And lots of biscuits in the various joins. Screw the two mouldings together all the way along the length. And at the corners, don't mitre the A45 but do a butt joint. That way the mitre in the A24 is reinforced.
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Steve N » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:06 am

Once you have made them, have you enough room to turn them around and also help in moving them
You'll will need to price them high, as you'll not be doing anything else when you are making them, so the cost will have to cover what you would normally make (money) in the same time plus more, I would be looking at 2.5 k each as a ball park figure

Ask you suppliers if they have any moulding more than 3 mts, I agree with the others, use plain wood and hand finish
I would use prospero method,
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby prospero » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm

If the profile rquired is fairly simple - no deep scoops or fiddly bits, a local timber yard may be able to machine it for you.
I once got my local Jewsons to make me some. It was a sort of 'pitched roof' shape, about 3" x 2". I went for softwood, but
make sure you ask for a premium grade with minimal knots. The stuff I got was very good and they did about 50Ft. One piece
was 7m long. :shock: Had a job getting it in the car. :lol:

However.... Things this size are better done in a stacked combo. The final result will be more stable and allow any
butt joins to be reinforced.

One of my fav systems for big mouldings is to use a flat panel edged each side with a smaller moulding. The beauty is that the
panel can be any width and you can use huge woodscrews in the corners as the edges will be concealed. Pine is good for this
costwise. If it's a bit knotty or split and you want a smooth surface, you can face it with MDF. :D The two flanking mouldings
need to be deep enough to conceal the panel depth. The inner one forms the rebate. But make the core sound as all the weight
is borne by it. In fact, if you are going the MDF-faced way you can half-lap the corners rather than mitre then by using two layers
of thin pine cladding (with the tongues ripped off). No fancy woodwork and the joint will be much stronger than a mitre joint.
It's important with frames of this scale to make sure the corners are super-strong. Even moving it very carefully
it's going to stress the corners. If one joint cracks you have big trouble. A bit of over-engineering is definitely called for.

Just my fourpen'th. :wink:
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Abacus » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:01 pm

As Steve n said, can you get it out of your workshop door?

I'm lucky enough to own a festool domino, so I'd use that to join the moulding on a 90 butt joint.
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Not your average framer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:11 pm

Mmmm....Considering the large size of these frames some seriously beefy support is definitely called for. A24 and A108 stacked together will still need some extra beefing up for something of that sort of size, particularly as both of those moulding are made from obeche.

Personally, I would extend the width of the A108 by adding another moulding inside the rebate and add something like A104 outside of the A108, so as to leave enough space to insert a support frame of 2" x 3" made from normal pine timber.

I have a very big and rather old stanley cast iron mitre clamp, so I would mitre the 2" x 3" and cut into the mitred corners two half inch thick crosswise timbers running through the mitre joint which would be glued and screwed to make a really solid joint.

The areas either side of each crossing timber through the joint would also provide space for cross screwing the mitred 2" x 3" timbers together.
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby A Few More Words » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:32 pm

Thanks for all your inputs.

In the end we used this Arqadia moulding.. ......the longest length we got in was 2.965m....so as we needed some framess over 3m , we managed to join them as follows.




Joined Moulding Back.jpg
3 x W2 Wedges inserted
Joined Moulding Back.jpg (210.14 KiB) Viewed 743 times

Joined Moulding Front.jpg
Join is visible on close up only
Joined Moulding Front.jpg (305.62 KiB) Viewed 743 times


We chopped the pieces to be joined in the saw...........one piece correct way round and other turned back to front.........this gave us 2 mating surfaces. We then routed 3 x W2 dovetail slots with the Hoffman router in the "normal" end...........as we would do if doing a regular 90 degree joint...........it then took a while to figure out the settings on the stops of the router to gets the corresponding dovetail slots in the correct place in this "back to front" piece...so that they were spot on to allow insertion of the wedges.
We then glued the joint and inserted the wedges. The result is strong & visually good , but not perfect....(could be improved by giving more time )...........but on this moulding in a large frame, the join is almost invisible...............centainly to non framers at 6 ft "!!!




It would be easier to do this technique on a flat front moulding, as we had to play with the wedge positions to take the profile into account.....compromising position for wedge depth etc.

In this instance , we were happy with the result, which is now quick and easily repeatable.

Yes the frames are big......but were Ok on space in the workshop and door access etc.....However, we do plan on using a furniture removal company to deliver them to the hotel. We are making the "frames " only..which will be placed over a "block mounted" print on a wall.

big frames 2.jpg
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Many Thanks
Tom
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First frame complete
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby prospero » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:50 pm

Nailed It!

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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Not your average framer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:28 pm

Crumbs, those frames are seriously large and it can't have been easy sourcing the glazing for them. Anyone who is not only willing to take on a job like this, but to also bring it to a successful conclusion is indeed worthy of respect for doings so. Great job and nicely executed.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Steve N » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:35 pm

:clap: :clap: :handshake: :yes: respect, well done,
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby Framie » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:38 pm

Wow, job well done :clap: :clap: :D
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Re: Oversize Frames.......Joining moulding

Postby astraios » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:35 am

Very impressive ... also thank you for tip how to join -> 3 x W2 Wedges. I'll test this right away :D.
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