Table saw

Picture Framing related issues. Everybody welcome.

Re: Table saw

Postby GeoSpectrum » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:58 am

I've got some stacked inlay frames to make. Here are a couple of the experiments. I'm making more and more of this sort of thing and a table saw is going to give me a lot of creative options. Probably....

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Re: Table saw

Postby fusionframer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:25 pm

Have a look at the Axminster hobby saw. It is a pretty decent machine. I have used a few different smaller saws and these are better than most.

Depending on space, if you have room for a bigger machine, you would be able to pick up a startrite cast iron machine for a bit more second hand. Then you are dealing with a much more accurate bit of kit. I have a startrite (but have excuse of doing joinery) and it is a brill machine.

Bear in mind with any of these machines, you will make loads of mess, even with extractors. I do my framing in a different area.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Dust extraction is something that takes a lot of experimenting to get it right and you really do need some serious air flow to contain and suck up all that dust. Different types of machinery present different problems in getting the best results with dust extraction. You should be able to get reasonably good dust extraction with table saws if you don't mind going to a reasonable amount of trouble to make it happen. Unfortunately electric chop, or mitre saws are far from easy, because effective containment of the dust is very hard to achieve.

I have not got a proper dust extractor, instead I use a industrial workshop vacuum cleaner, the sound level when using this cleaner is just about off the scale, but it shifts a serious amount of air, which is a large part of winning the battle. It has a very large diameter hose and besides picking up industrial quantities of dust, dust, wood chippings and even small metal shavings, the specification says that it can be used to suck up water as well.

It's got some very serious suction and you need to use that suction to create as much air flow as possible right at the point where the dust in being generated, so as to draw the largest possible amount of this dust straight into the vacuum cleaner. Splitting this air flow between different areas within your saw does not help, because the available suction will generate the airflow via whatever is the line of least resistance.

There are two locations on my table saw from where I intend to extract dust and although I already have a very heavy duty vacuum cleaner, I plan to purchase a second vacuum cleaner to be able to ensure the maximum level of dust extraction in both locations. Fortunately there are various ways of containing the airflow around the blade and in particular around the point of cutting so that any dust generated can only go one way and that is into the vacuum cleaner.

Unfortunately this is not possible to the same extent with an electric chop saw, or mitre saw. It's just not possible to produce the same level of containment of the dust, or containment of the airflow generated by the dust extraction system. It's a bit of a sweeping generalisation to say this, but a smaller diameter blade on your chop, or mitre saw probably causes less turbulent air, than a larger blade and may disperse less of the dust away from the vicinity of the blade and the airflow caused by well placed dust extraction airflow.

Dust extraction airflow connections on electric power tools are not necessarily as optimised as we might expect. All manner of items that are designed, must be ready for production within a certain timescale and within certain costs and optimisation of some performance aspects will be more important than others. It's just how these things are and usually there is scope for end users (such as ourselves), to do things which can make decisive differences to areas where relatively simple actions result in notable improvements.
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Re: Table saw

Postby fusionframer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:15 am

Try these for vacuum dust collectors.

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... nds+dk6695

There are bigger sizes.

I agree that by experimenting, you can improve dust collection massively. I have 4 extractors in my workshop. 2 are the above, but larger size. These are attached to the mitre saw and router table. I have 2 larger dust extractors which attach to my table saw and planer thicknesser. I have tried different connections and have made improvements, but whatever I try to do, it still looks like an old butchers shop by the end of the day.

I guess if you are using machines for a few cuts, it is not going to have the above effect, but when I first started doing some joinery projects, I still had problems when it came to getting frame together without any dust.

I ended up doing joinery bits and then spending ages cleaning before framing. It is possible, but it is surprising how long dust stays around. I now have my morso in with my tools, but my mount cutter is in a separate room and I do fitting frames in there. I also store glass and mount board in there.

You are right as well that a mitre saw is the worst for dust extraction. There are videos on YouTube showing how to add bits to improve this
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:22 pm

fusionframer wrote:Try these for vacuum dust collectors.


Thank you. I've got a more, or less indentical machine that I bought about 5 years ago from Argos. The main difference being that mine has a plastic casing. Huge amounts of suction for more, or less the same price as yours.

I agree with fusionframer. Powerful vacuum cleaners make great dust extractors, usually the really noisy vacuum cleaners produce the greatest suction. BTW, it's not easy to quieten vacuum cleaner, without losing the level of suction. Large sheets of egg box material can stop the noise bouncing back off the walls quite a bit. The cheap and easy answer is ear defenders.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Abacus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:30 pm

We use a wadkin bursgreen cast iron top table saw from 1962. It is fab and quiet

They pop up on eBay sometimes and if you ever come to sell it you will get your money back. Just make sure that if you do buy one it's 240v
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Re: Table saw

Postby vintage frames » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:21 am

A site saw would be adequate for nearly all framing work. One from Makita or Elu or other, pay about £300 to £400. A good old fashioned, 2nd hand joinery workshop saw even better - if you have the room.
I wouldn't waste any time or money on vacuum cleaners. You need a decent work-shop dust extractor.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:10 pm

Yes, I know! Unfortunately I'm going to be using the saw in a room where space is already a problem, so it has to be the vacuum cleaner. Besides I already have the vacuum cleaner and it is one which is also marketed as dual purpose vacuum cleaner and dust extractor.

Machinery is the main proirity at this stage I'll be spending money on the machinery first. I'm doing a job which would be much easier with a linisher right now, so I'm looking to buy a linisher pretty soon and the next lot of spare cash will go on that.
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Re: Table saw

Postby vintage frames » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:54 pm

Interesting. What are you going to use a linisher for?
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Re: Table saw

Postby GeoSpectrum » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:24 pm

Isn’t that a belt sander?
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:37 pm

Well, the one I want to get is a bench top mounted belt sander and a disc sander all it one. When I was an apprentice engineer during the 1960's, I spent six months in every engineering department in company I was working for. One of those departments was the engineering machine shop, which was where I first used a linisher and found out just how useful they can be and what they can be used for.

A linisher can be a very fast way of sanding all manner of materials exactly to shape and size. It is not limited to just wood, but also plastics and metals. I'm not sure how many other framers would necessarily decide to get one, but it's on my own personal wish list, because I know what I can do with one from my earlier experiences.

I'm currently repairing an old rather imposing wash stand and mirror. Unfortunately some of the compo ornamentation has be damaged and I don't have any confidence in making a perfect repair, because this ornamentation is extremely thin and very fiddly and is also nailed on top of an already gilded surface. I have got some wood pasta ornamentation pieces for Lion, Unfortunately these particular bits of ornamentation are far to thick and need to be thinned down and remodeled and bits can apart and glued together to suit the application.

Since this will again be pinned in place only, after all the bits have been glued together I will sand the reverse face of this ornamentation items completely flat to avoid pinning items in place that are not quite flat and creating strain within them when they are nailed flat. There is quite a lot of ornamentation to be prepared and replaced, which will be time consuming and buying a linisher to do the job turns out to be the sensible way to do this. The price quoted for the job will easily cover the cost of the linisher as well, so it all makes perfect sense.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Jamesnkr » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:08 am

I'd love a linisher for making frames with round corners. (I'd love a linisher because I like power tools.)
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Re: Table saw

Postby vintage frames » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:15 am

A linisher is perfect for leveling out some castings. Can be good for sanding flat profiles too.
Linishers and I, we go back a long way.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:39 pm

Jamesnkr wrote:I'd love a linisher for making frames with round corners.


A linisher would be a good start for round corners, but you would need to draw around a circle template to get a line to linish down to and then finish off with a sandpaper block and some fine sandpaper. Actually getting a seemless join between the two lengths of wood meeting at the corner is not always as easy as it may sound.

Quite often the actual join needs a bit of filling, or smoothing down of a few layers of paint, because the join between the different lengths of wood does not absorb paint as uniformly as elsewhere. Also, because the rounded corner is exposing some of the end grain of the wood, there will be extra effort involved in getting this perfect.

I suppose you could veneer all round the sides of the frame, you have to be good when it comes to where to place the join between the pieces of veneer. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I think that those who are well practiced with veneer work, will do better that those us doing this for the first time. I might add that I'm not very experienced at veneer work and bending veneers around curves could well be more skillful, than many of us imagine.

Having said all that, a linisher would be a great tool for shaping round corners and personally I would use the linisher with a medium to coarse abrasive material to gain the most advantage in removing the unwanted sections of the moulding material at a sensible speed. Using the rotary disk with the table set to 90 degrees is the best way to work to the marked line, but this means that you are sanding against the grain, hence the sanding block and a finer abrasive to finish up and remove the resulting effects of sanding across the grain.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:45 pm

vintage frames wrote:A linisher is perfect for leveling out some castings. Can be good for sanding flat profiles too.
Linishers and I, we go back a long way.


I find that there is a very instinctive feel that goes with using a linisher, I'm guessing that you would agree as well.

BTW, does anyone know what is the correct name for those flat bits of wood that are cut to a decorative shape and fixed on to the top rail of a frame, I want to look for some good examples on the web that I can copy. My thanks in anticipation. Mark

Here's a rough idea of what I am thinking about, but I want to do something simpler than this, out of plywood with a couple of pieces of moulding to create some interesting relief. https://www.antiqueandartexchange.com/sites/default/files/styles/uc_product/public/tabernaclemirror.jpg?itok=el702Ml2
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Re: Table saw

Postby Jamesnkr » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:41 am

Pediment?

I presumably need not tell you it is a tabernacle frame.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Framemaker Richard » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Phone pic from the book 'Looking at European Frames' - a glossary of terms.
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Tabernacle Frames
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Re: Table saw

Postby prospero » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:53 pm

This will give Mark something to think about. :shock:

They don't seem to have a name for the fancy bit on the top....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv1ZKycy5t4




(btw. The YouTube embed tabs don't seem to work anymore. :cry: )
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:41 pm

Thank you James and Richard,

Pediment appears to be the word I am looking for! Now I can start looking for some examples to consider copying. I may take a little while, but I hope that I will be posting a picture, or two later.
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Re: Table saw

Postby Not your average framer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:15 pm

I'm now the owner of a belt and disk sander, (which is what used to be called a linisher). I have not had a chance to use it yet, but it has been assembled and tested and will be used shortly for flattening the wood pasta ornaments which are to be pinned onto a rather impressive old frame that I am currently restoring. I was also pleased to find that this item of equipment is surprisingly quiet when it is running.

Next item on the list is likely to be a small bench top bandsaw, (probably in the next few weeks).
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