Lets Play Phil and Kirsty

[Nigeman]

Not sure wether to post this on HELP or DISCUSSION page. Having seen over the years the depth of help and info this forum can generate, may I throw you all a stick to play with as seen best.
Suppose I was to move my business from my current high st shop approx 1000 sq. feet (showroom / office downstairs, workshop and stock room upstairs) to a one floor empty rectangle of a business unit of similar area.
FYI single owner/operator, morso, Cassesse 299 underpinner, fletcher 3100 wall cutter, Valiani 120 and fletcher 2100 mountcutters, hotpress 360, air comp. usual tools and airguns.
My question for all you Phil and Kirstys out there is how would you arrange everything in the new rectangle?
Should customers see a clean and tidy workshop and keep things open plan? what percentage of space would you devote to taking work in, chevrons, mount card displays etc? should compressor be isolated? First impression when customer comes through door should be...? Efficient placement of equipment, best position for work table/bench?
There is a good article in the 4 Walls magazine which led me to thinking about the collective knowledge out there. Your experiences of wise and not so wise choices. Or if it is not broken (which it isn't) why change anything.
I have no prizes to give away but am prepared to consider contenders for the most "imaginative idea on the thread" and reward appropriately.
Cheers, Nigel

[kev@frames]

least creative idea you'll get - based on four shops over 20 years:

Make the workshop as big as possible and the shop area as small as you can get away with, be generous with room behind your counter and plenty of counter top.

we recently also "improved" on this by taking away half of our shop floor and made it into a store room for outgoing/pending jobs. And did trade drop off? what do you think? Of course it didn't. So all along we were wasting space on a shop area too big and making do with a workshop/store too small, plus of course there is the advantage of store/workshop area being lesser rates than retail, so you could shave back your business rates in the process.

compressors are quiet anyway, customers don't mind, and it adds to the atmosphere of "stuff getting done", as do wafts of briwax etc.

open plan? come on, only a few framers go for this concept, look at most framers sartorial elegance (or lack of) and the cussing and untidyness that frame workshops are known for and make up your own mind, specially if you have staff. Some people don't like being watched while they work, I am one of those as well.
Even if your workhops are tidy and organised, they will still look like a shambles to the casual observer, and mess and untidiness creeps up on you to a point where you dont notice, but the customer does, and then forms the wrong impression. Some customers expect operating-theatre or a laboratory behind the scenes.... what the don't see won't hurt them. Let them imagine the wonderful process that turns their stuff into nice-things-for-their-home.

[Vix]

Ok, bags I can play at being Kirsty!

I totally agree with what Kev has said. I did a similar thing at my last place. Cut down on the shop area and made more room for working and storage. I didn't loose any customers and it meant that I could cater for higher volumes of work, whilst working more efficiently and comfortably.

I've just recently moved to new premises (similar to what you are descibing) where again I've got an area big enough to meet the needs of my customers - display space for chevrons, some framed samples on the wall and a large area for laying out work brought in to be framed.It's meant that I can have an even larger workshop space, but it's been screened off by a partition wall, so that I can maintain a degree of privacy whilst I work and it's a physical barrier to prevent people from just walking straight into the working area and either damaging other customers work or worse still having an accident from handling something they shouldn't!

I don't know about you but I hate having people watching me work over my shoulder, so i'd always go for screening off the work area and as Kev has said I don't have to keep things spotless because i'm not on view - you could spend half your time cleaning up which is taking you away from valuable working time.

[Not your average framer]

I've got quite a small shop which is just crammed full of equipment, materials and benches here, there and anywhere it can fit something into an available space. It's not particularly neat and tidy, but it is what it is and I'm usually fairly well overloaded with work.

I would love to have more space, but I only have what I have, so that's that! I no longer have one nice big bench, but several smaller ones which allows a little more flexiblity and more effective use of what is not quite enough space for the level of work which comes my way.

Not much is hidden from the sight of my customers who are able to see me working, but I have never found this to be a problem. The perception is that my business is an old fashioned sort of business and customers say that they like this, so I guess that must be a good thing.

[Nigeman]

Great feedback, please keep it coming. Seems so far that workshop facilities can be gained from customer areas with no negative impact, interesting.

Also been thinking about car parking. What impact does designated free car parking have over street / get as close as you can get parking. After all the majority of our customers will be coming in and leaving with awkward / heavy/ precious / fragile
/ easily rain damaged / multiple / G. all the above / artwork, posters, frames etc. Does poor access prevent customers from going to one particular framer over another? I quess location, location etc is always in the customers mind.

P.s. I would be slightly concerned if any of you would prefer to play with Phil rather than Kirsty.

Nigel Mcf

[Ricky]

I guess the picture will say it all, I'm in a busy market town where they charge silly rent & rates for not a lot of space so i set up in an indoor market right next to a restaurant so the footfall is good, space is of a premium 22ft x 8ft.
customers don't mind the untidiness they like to see the machinery & how it works & i regularly have people stand & watch me putting things together,mabye i should charge them for the show it creates interest & word gets around so I'm not complaining,

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[Not your average framer]

Hi Ricky,

Wow! That's a really small space for a framing business to operate in. How do you store your stock and does this mean that you have to discard useful off-cuts, because there is nowhere to keep them?

I thought that my shop was small, but in comparison to yours, mine is sounding quite spacious!

[Dave]

My shop is open plan and everything is on display. I have to say that I'm probably the most untidy framer in the world, but my customers love to see what goes on and they accept the fact that it is a workshop. How do I know that? They tell me, and usually follow it up with "you should see the Husbands" Due to the layout of the shop we don't really have the option to change it and I don't think I'd like to be shut away in a room at the back anyway, despite my general perceptions of the human race I like 95% of my customers, and enjoy passing the time of day with them. Our shop is in a 1700s building with exposed flint, beams and an old fireplace, it's so juxtaposed from the modern faceless, plastic high street units, people who use it love it.

Rickys shop is amazing, I feel positively agrophobic in here now. Where is the Morso though?

Now where the hell did I bury my point gun.

Dave

[Ricky]

Hi Mark & Dave this picture taken from the other end of the unit shows how i keep my stock in place, & where the morso is, above on the ceiling i have racks for Moulding, also on the walls i have Peg Board with 12" long metal supports to accommodate different lengths of moulding, under the stairs that leads to the second floor antique dealers i have my mount-board, corrie cor etc, also under my workbench are more off cuts & my JM26 + laminates & adhesives My desk is a 6 drawer plan chest, the top of which it covered with rubbish plus my laptop, a4 printer & Kettle.My underpinner is situated between my desk & my workbench.

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[FFrames]

I'm looking at properties to rent for my new business atm... I've seen a few different options... All on the ground floor... Half on ground floor/ half basement... Spread over 4 floors.. etc..

If you could choose the perfect layout for your business, what would it be? I'm leaning towards a small shop on ground with large workshop in basement... But I guess that's going to cause issues with stock deliveries + machinery. There's not much to choose from for my budget though, so ultimately I'll have to compromise something.

Oh.. and please keep the pics coming! Getting ome good inspiration here!

[Dave]

One thing with shops on different levels to consider is glass. Anything above an 8 x 10 and I'd be seriously concerned, it doesn't like going around corners and with my history of glass and achilles tendon I'm very cautious.


Dave

[misterdiy]

Most definitely one level operation if possible. And that needs to be ground level. Our last place was on the first floor up stairs that were built like a fire escape. It was difficult enough getting moulding up these stairs and glass was a major problem. Our supplier (one of the big boys) started by carrying the glass up the stairs (4' x 3') for us, but started moaning when we got to 20 sheets at a time. our present location came up after 12 months of trading and that is 1500 sq ft and arranged from "goods in" to despatch. Now we have 50 to 80 sheets at a time and the same in board so would be a nightmare up two flights - though it might make me fitter (if I hadn't cut myself through an artery) We have the CMC in our "reception" and customers love it, although a tad noisy even after moving the vacuum pump into the bog. We have the equipment facing reception so that customers can see us working. I can see them too, which is helpful and also inviting to customers rather than showing my back.

[kev@frames]

ideal premises?

all on the flat and with a wide back door for deliveries and waste would be my first things on the list.
one big area that you can partition off.
big windows plenty of light.
Location.

any three of those. preferably all four.
and ideally in a perfect world all four of those plus 3.5 metre ceiling height to store all mouldings upright

definitely agree that glass is something you really dont want to be moving from level to level. Ours is stacked right inside the back door next to where its cut.
I used to have a worskhop above one of our shops, and I honestly think the insurance company would laugh in my face if I'd have had staff then who had an accident with glass on the stairs, as for health and safety, I reckon they would have shut me down. You dont realise how dangerous it is until you have a close shave or worse.

[Abacus]

I have the luxury of a 2000 sq foot building, plus two mezzanine levels. It's set out as follows,

Customers enter into a gallery/customer area, 15m wide by 4m deep, with art on the walls and a couple of low benches where customers place their art, in the ceiling over one bench is a camera which links into the visualisation and pricing pc which is on a separate bench with mountcard samples and the printer. The wall nearest the bench has 300 chevrons on it, colours and metal frames are on other areas.

Through a door (which we always leave open, but usually dont encourage customers to walk around) is an area 15m wide by 5m which contains 3 large square work benches, another long bench which has a Morso, and brevetti saw on one side (with side extensions)' with extractor underneath. On the other side is an omga saw with side extensions. On another wall is a large bench with the underpinner sunk into it.
Behind the morso and saw are 55 vertical bays of moulding storage, 5m high.

Along one wall are 60 "slots" for completed work.

There is also a small office area with desk, pc, printer etc

Stairs lead up to a mezzanine (above the gallery) which has lots of benches for working on, the mountcutters, hot press, storage for work waiting for stuff (moulding etc).

Also upstairs is the clean assembly area, obviously for assembly!

From the main area another door leads to the "back room", this has a roller shutter door for easy unloading of stock. In here is the glass storage, wall mounted glass cutter, machines on benches for making strut backs, a table router and mdf storage and a table saw and extractor system. The bins are also here.

Stairs lead up to a mezzanine which has the bogs, a kitchen And more storage.

If I had started from scratch the "clean and mountcutters" mezzanine would be on the same level as the other areas, as we have to carry the cut to size glass up a flight of stairs, but other than that I wouldn't change anything. We also have lots of parking and are on a main road. Of course the rent and rates reflect the great shop.

[FFrames]

I did see a lovely 4 storey building right in the centre of town today, but the stairs were tiny, so unfortunatly that's a no go. I think I'll stick to looking for one level properties if possible now. I do need at least 800sq ft though, so a ground floor shop of that size might be a bit too expensive in London!

Am looking at these two on Monday now..

http://www.bellssurveyors.co.uk/detail. ... viewmode=1 This one looks promissing, but didn't really want something that is sooo open to the public.

[url]ttp://www.bellssurveyors.co.uk/detail.asp?pro ... viewmode=1[/url] This seems like it the space could almost be perfect! Not the greatest of locations though. First one isn't either really

Your space sounds great Abacus... Would love to see some pictures!

[Nigeman]

OK. Its the part when Phil and Kirsty go to the pub and put in a cheeky offer to the vendor. I did and now have the old cafeteria of a disused factory that is being converted into a business park. Its off a main road easy access and free parking. Here are some "before" pics the after ones will come after. Painting, cleaning, planning signs and running current shop are keeping me busy. All feedback and ideas welcome.

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[Nigeman]

OK. Its the part when Phil and Kirsty go to the pub and put in a chheky offer to the vendor. I did and now have the old cafeteria of a disused factory that is being converted into a business park. Its off a main road easy access and free parking. Here are some "before" pics the after ones will come after. Painting, cleaning, planning signs and running current shop are keeping me busy. All feedback and ideas welcome.

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[Dave]

Looks like a good workable space, I think you should be able to recover some of your costs if you peel that wallpaper off carefully. There seems to be a huge trade at the moment on cack / 70s / retro "design".

Good luck with it.

[Graysalchemy]

That is what mine looked like before I moved in nearly 4000sq ft.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like that now.