GCF logo

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 3:29 pm

Had an email from the Fine Art Trade Guild today telling me that as a GCF - but not a guild member I cant use the GCF logo. I can still use GCF - as in Mark Wallington GCF but, apart from other framers nobody else knows what it means.

Might have to borrow Roboframers idea but BFT doesnt sound as good as BFA.

Well I scraped the GCF logo off my door - and I have amended my labels - I shall award the first customer who notices a discount. still got the certificate though - I'm allowed to use that even though its got a logo on it.

Maybe we could have a framers forum logo for framing excellence?

Post by **prospero** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 3:42 pm

I have a FATG certificate from 1983 somewhere. I took it off the wall when the signatures faded away.

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 3:54 pm

I have one about the same date - the signatures faded on that one as well.

Post by **John** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 4:28 pm

I suspect everybody got the email, current members and past members alike.

Though a current member, I got one. But I'm in the opposite position, I don't actually have any FATG emblems on display.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 6:28 pm

yup we got one, replied to it on my mothers behalf, she's back in Hospital again.... MRSA superbug anyone?

It seems a bit of a slap in the face from the guild, considering they don't seem to cater much for the picture framer members, sometimes i wonder what our subscription fee goes to...

anyway, does anyone know if the GCF stage 1 course book from 1995 is still valid and useful? i want to take my GCF and later GCF adv. test.

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:48 pm

www.ppfa.com

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 8:36 am

Guild website states the following:

All framers, anywhere can:

confirm their skills

distinguish themselves from others

increase customer confidence

use GCF status for publicity
and promotion

enhance their entry in Yellow Pages or Thomson Directories. .

You can take the test as a non member, they just charge a bit more for it. Saying some years after taking the test that you cant use the logo seems to make taking it in the first place fairly pointless.

One of the main reasons I left the FATG was the petty bureaucracy - Forgive the pun, but they fail to see the bigger picture.

The GCF logo should mean something to the public - an assurance that the frame shop they are entering has the basic knowledge to frame their work - The fact that the framer is or isnt a member of the FATG shouldnt be part of that assurance. If the FATG are to be so precious about the Guild logo then they should consider rebranding the GCF qualification logo so that it doesnt include the FATG logo.

The FATG have shot themselves in the foot again - non members will see little point in taking the test. Those of us who are non kosher GCFs will not display any association with the FATG and the majority of remaining framers are not members anyway - result being that the FATGs very underwhelming presence will become smaller - the logo less recognised and the publics perception less than the present almost non existent.

How many forum members are FATG members?

How many of you are happy with the guild and deeply impressed by what it has to offer?

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:09 am

Surely, if you have passed the GCF test then you are a Guild Commended Framer whether you are still a member of the guild or not. It is a bit like passing your A levels but not being able to use them when you leave school!

Post by **prospero** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:09 am

I was a guild member many years ago, mainly to get the mag which was very useful at the time. I let my membership lapse after they hiked up the subscription and cut down the yearly number of mag issues. Other concessions proved not very useful. I once had a 'discount' quote from a guild reccomended insurer which was roughly twice what I was already paying.

It occured to me that any fool can join the guild and proudly display the emblem. As long as they cough up the subs and get another member to referee them. It's not as if someone comes round and checks your work.

I'm not condeming the Guild entirely. They have done a lot to encourage higher standards in the trade. It's just that they aught to make membership more selective so that being a member is a true mark of prestige.

Post by **John** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:44 am

The email restated what I already knew:

If I am not a member, I am not entitled to display the FATG logo.

If I am a GCF, I retain my Guild Commended Framer qualification and can continue to call myself Guild Commended Framer or GCF.

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 12:05 pm

John - I am not disputing the right to display the FATG logo - I'm not a member - and as soon as I ceased to be a member I took down the logo. But I passed the GCF and consider my right to display the qualification symbol as part of the deal made when i paid to take the test.

It would seem to be fairly pointless for non FATG members to take the test as they cant display the GCF logo in their window - yet they can still display the GCF certificate that contains the logo - now where is the sense in that?

The FATG should be looking at making itself into an organisation that no framer would sensibly avoid joining - Instead they are an organisation that most framers consider poor value for money - and who do little to truly represent our industry. (based on impact to individual businesses)

IMHO If the FATG are twitchy about the way the GCF logo is used they should send GCFs the relevant file and ask them to use the official version. The only way that the GCF can get the public recognition that it deserves is for it to be displayed and recognised as a trustworthy symbol of merit - saying if your not a member you cant display the badge is just plain shortsighted.

This goes even further than not displaying a logo - it calls into question the standards that a gcf should work to and how the FATG can possibly police such standards or serious breaches of such - who does Joe Public complain too if the work they have just recieved, complete with sticker proclaiming the framer a Guild Certified Framer, is crap? At least with a GCF logo containing the FATG symbol they had some clue.

Personally I think they have degraded the qualification to a pointless position so removing it from my business will have no affect whatsoever.

Steve N · Post by **Steve N** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 2:56 pm

Hi there,
I'm a new memeber to this forum. I have to say that most of the public do not know who or what the Guild is or does, we stopped being members when they took 3 weeks to put a job advert on its website, we told them you can not take that long to action a job in business. Anyway back to the topic, why not just put up a notice or sign that says you are a Guild Commended Framer, most customers will not ask what Guild it is.
What do you think ?

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 3:32 pm

I joined the FATG some 9 years ago now and have been a GCF for 8 of those years.
I did not renew my membership this time around for many reasons, the primary one being that they DO NOT support the small High street/Garage framer.
The magazine ABT (A Black Tie magazine), in the early days was very good with hints and tips sections. Now it is full of dinner dances and awards. That does not help me way down here in the S West.
The Guild refuse to accept modern technology and the WWW. This forum for example, could be an ideal medium for them to gain more members and talk to us (a captured audience so to speak). They refuse to even acknowledge it. So short sighted.
After many years of harranging (sp) the MD that SW Cornwall has 81 framers (Yellow pages) listed, yet only 9 are Guild members and at the time I was the only GCF in Cornwall. Eventually the Guild tried to put on a 'trade meeting' in Plymouth. I travelled there only to find that it had been cancelled due to lack of interest. NO! they didnt even give me the courtesy of a communication to let me know of the cancellation. I telephoned around the local framers (some 20 in number) and NOT one of them knew anything about this meeting. Somebody at the Guild needs to do some research on marketing and PR.

My fees were paying for somebody at the Guild to be part of 'the shiny arse brigade'. Not any more.

As for the FATG logo and the GCF logo, like the rest of you. How many people have actually asked what or even who they are. A handfull maybe.

PPFA looks to be the future.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 5:05 pm

Hi Steve(N!) I'm another framing sprog and recent joiner, too. Welcome to the forum!

As you comment in your post (as do others above), I agree that public awareness about the GCF qualification - and the FATG itself - appears to be very limited; and, according to my trade contacts, it is doubly so this side of the Pond (southern Ireland).

RobinC wrote:Surely, if you have passed the GCF test then you are a Guild Commended Framer whether you are still a member of the guild or not. It is a bit like passing your A levels but not being able to use them when you leave school!

Absolutely, Robin. I'd like to see Universities try to charge their graduates year-on-year for permission to display their degrees!

prospero wrote:... they aught to make membership more selective so that being a member is a true mark of prestige.

I second the above. And if some of the work that has come in to me for reframing from FATG members (nb: not GCF's) is anything to go by, then for the Irish market, having a membership sticker in your window is nigh on meaningless from a quality perspective.

markw wrote:... (FATG are) an organisation that most framers consider poor value for money - and who do little to truly represent our industry.

The FATG have shot themselves in the foot again - non members will see little point in taking the test.

(emphasis mine)

You took the words out of my mouth, Mark. Why pay good money to display a sticker in one's window that has no meaning to yer average customer? There are many well-known quality "brands" such as ISO 9000, BS Kitemark, "Corgi" and "IATA" which are instantly recognisable to the public. To my mind, that is the type of recognition that the Guild should be striving for. If they want to highlight the currency of membership, why not issue "FATG Member 2007" stlye stickers, as other organisations do? The (alleged?) prestige of being a current member would not be lessened, and "past sell-by date" stickers would still work to raise the profile of the FATG "brand."

I've already looked into the possibility of going for CPF rather than GCF status. Taking the lead from Ormond's sign-off I noticed from the PPFA website that they hold tests in the antipodes. Have they ever offered tests in the UK? If they did, I, for one, would certainly like to apply. I know that I'm only a beginner, but I take great pride in the work that I do, the finish I put on my frames is much better than a lot of the work I see, and I would like to have an "official quality stamp" so that customers will know that they've come to someone that they can trust to do the right job. And it doesn't need to be "GCF."

Perhaps the thread should be called "Logos for Cash", because that's all that I can see going on.

Edited to add:

An afterthought. I notice none of the posts above mention the FATG directory. Have any members of the forum ever derived any benefit from their listings in said directory?

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 5:55 pm

Thank you Moglet.
You have just proved my point by making me look at the membership directory.

In the SW Cornwall. There are 6. Yes you got is SIX Retailer/Framers listed and only one GCF.

Maybe the other 75 know something that the FATG are missing.

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 6:35 pm

Hi,

Im a GCF and a member of the FATG and am not overly impressed by the way they do business, however doing the GCF was one of the best things i've done, as it sent me on the right path in developing my skills.

In my opinion all framers who want to join the FATG should FIRSTLY, sit and PASS their GCF, before being allowed join

This way all Framer members have proven (even in a little way) that they are comitted to correct methods and show an interest in improving their craft.
Just writing a cheque, should NOT allow entry to the FATG.

Regards,

Stephen GCF

Tam Lin · Post by **Tam Lin** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 6:53 pm

Moglet wrote:If they want to highlight the currency of membership, why not issue "FATG Member 2007" stlye stickers, as other organisations do?

They do. There are many points in this thread that I'd like to return to - tomorrow perhaps, when I've more time and I've had a good think!

Dave

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 9:38 pm

Moglet wrote: I second the above. And if some of the work that has come in to me for reframing from FATG members (nb: not GCF's) is anything to go by, then for the Irish market, having a membership sticker in your window is nigh on meaningless from a quality perspective.

I disagree with this. A trade organization should be open to anyone in the trade. If you think limiting the membership to a select few, will raise standards, how will you decide who the select few will be and who will do the selection? Passing the GCF or any other certification does not guarantee that the person will work to any particular standard. Making the organisation exclusive will not elevate the whole industry to a level where we can all make better incomes.

It's the public's perception of the industry that we need to change in order to take the industry from whatever it is now in your area to a much more respected and important industry! To do that, we need to educate almost everyone not just an exclusive few! I say "almost" because there will always be some who think they already know everything.

One of the aims of a trade org such as PPFA is to educate. If framer are better educated, the whole industry will benefit by raising thr standard of framing. Education is the number one contributor to raising the standard of any industry, IMHO.

Moglet wrote:Taking the lead from Ormond's sign-off I noticed from the PPFA website that they hold tests in the antipodes. Have they ever offered tests in the UK?

I did my CPF test in Melbourne in 1991. If you guys up there in the UK build a membership in PPFA, I'm sure they will offer the tests there at some time.

Just remember that with any organisation, that you should not just join for what you can get out of it. You have to put something into it.

I'm puzzled by all of your comments about the FATG. If it is so bad, why haven't you all joined it and voted in some people who will make it relevant?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 10:23 pm

osgood wrote:
I'm puzzled by all of your comments about the FATG. If it is so bad, why haven't you all joined it and voted in some people who will make it relevant?

Many reasons - it's not a Framers' body - the word 'Framer' doesn't feature and the articles on framing in their magazine reflects what they are about - let alone the quality of those articles.

A whole load of framers like you and I filling the top table won't bring them any advertising revenue - they depend on and are practically run by those that want to sell stuff to the likes of me and you.

I haven't time to get stuck in to them, but they do have the time to get stuck in to me, and the likes of, but they don't, they are happy with those that have come to what they have built.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:09 pm

Good points all, Ormond, and in particular I support your emphasis on the importance of education.

On rereading my comments about FATG membership and quality, I realise now that I could have structured them better. I now see that I was making a couple of unfounded (and subsequently unexpressed ) assumptions about the function/purpose/role of the FATG. In my own mind, I was - to a degree - equating the FATG with the likes of "Corgi" for heating engineers. (If my understanding is correct, "Corgi-registered" status gives an assurance to the customer that such engineers carry out work in line with their trade association's standards and guidelines (e.g. technical, safety, ethical practices).) Given that FATG sets standards for framing practices, I made the mental leap to assume (perhaps wrongly) that FATG membership was a form of assurance to the customer that an FATG member business would comply with FATG standards and codes of practice.* If my assumption is incorrect, then my comments on the "perceived value" of FATG membership as an assurance of quality to the customer have no basis. (My apologies to the Guild if I am in error.)

It's a while since I visited the FATG website. I think it would be a good idea for me to refresh my memory about some of the content. It's entirely possible that my perceptions of the FATG's role exceed the actuality. Food for thought...

Regarding tests in the UK, Ormond, what timescale was there between the Australian PPFA members requesting tests, and the PPFA actually running them "down under"? I ask because I am seriously considering applying to take the test in the States.

osgood wrote:... you should not just join [an organisation] for what you can get out of it. You have to put something into it.

I concur. And, from my experience, it's a positive feedback loop (the more you put in, the more you get out).

I'd be very interested to hear about the dynamics of Australian PPFA membership, particularly because it's working over such a geographical distance. I think it could be highly informative for UK/Ireland members who are considering joining the PPFA.

____________
Áine

* Intended scope of this comment is restricted to framing businesses, and excludes such other member types as publishers/ galleries, etc.