Spatial framing or display cases.

[cubic framer]

Spatial framing or display cases.

Does the Framing industry need to understand the difference?

My apologies!!

[osgood]

Cubic,

As a framer for 22 years I have framed many thousands of pieces of art, needlework etc. etc. and nowhere near as many "display cases" or whatever you would like to call them. I personally am not concerned one whit what terminology anyone uses to describe 3D framing.

All I am concerned with, is that it is done tastefully and archivally (if that's a real word) and to a high standard of craftsmanship.

I am a little puzzled by your post. Perhaps you might enlighten us as to what it is that you are trying to say or even better what is it you are asking?

[cubic framer]

Cubic,


I am a little puzzled by your post. Perhaps you might enlighten us as to what it is that you are trying to say or even better what is it you are asking?

Who is a good craftsmans sternest critic, the fact that you are puzzled may be that collectively framers have not applied this maxim to themselves.

Over your 22 years I have no doubt that the expertise that you have passed on to your clients in both advice and quality of work has improved.

As a bespoke framer you have asked the question why have I re-invented a term for 3D framing. Have I?

Are you a gallery owner as well?

I ask the question to see if there is understanding of what the answer might be.

With the understanding that comes from the answer, it is possible that the framers craft may need an additional term.

[Moglet]

SPATIAL FRAMING or display cases.

Does the Framing industry to understand the difference?

Cubic,

There is no verb in your question: therefore your meaning is unclear.

(By the way, from an internet etiquette perspective, the use of "All Caps" in text comes across to readers as "shouting.")

------
Edited to add:

Cubic has now kindly edited his original post.

[Steve N]

Hi All,
I do not understand the question is anything to do with :For ten years the Taylor Spatial Frame has been correcting post traumatic and congenital orthopaedic deformities.If you follow this link http://www.spatialframe.com/index.jsp;j ... EF8CA798AD
Have I logged onto the wrong forum ie. The Orthopaedic Forum
Sorry just joking, tell us Cubic Framer the difference.

Steve

[Alzibiff]

SPATIAL FRAMING or display cases.

Does the Framing industry to understand the difference?

An industry - framing or otherwise cannot 'understand' anything dearest questioner. An individual may be able to demonstrate an understanding of a concept, idea or such like via practical demonstration, verbal or written communication but surely, an industry cannot, as such demonstrate anything.

Perhaps Cubic Framer could expand and tell the rest of us what HE/SHE understands by the terms 'Spatial framing' and 'Display case'.

Not right sure what sort of question old Cubic is raising here. (If it IS a question and not some opening for a philosophical debate).
Ask yourself this - does the industry understand conservation framing? Well - some individuals do, some don't - depends on the criteria you set to measure understanding but for goodness sake a nebulous body such as an "industry" .... Oh dear, I will stop now.

Alan

[cubic framer]

Firstly I am trying to open a topic, that covers framing using more than 2 planes of translucent material.

Spatial framing is intended be a term for that arm of framing that encloses space.

The ability to do this to a higher quality has existed for more than 40 years, examples of the range of quality and potential applications have been demonstrated by previous generations.

The framer has a duty of care to his customer, as does any professional, to give both the best advice available and the best of his skill to the level of his ability.

In order to close the gap between what could be possible and what is being done requires a greater level of understanding between client, retail outlet, framer and supplier.

To create this it is possible that there is a need for a philosphical debate as well as a common understanding of terms which do not exist, to my knowledge TMK.

[Roboframer]

Spatial framing or display cases.

Display cases

Does the Framing industry need to understand the difference?

Yes But doesn't it already? Something that is 'spatially' framed does not have to be viewed from all angles, could be from one or both sides of a 'frame' - we already have terms for this.

My apologies!!

For what?


I really don't know what al the fuss is about - you make things I'd call display cases and seem to think we are missing out - you've given an example of your work - been congratulated on it - no-one has begged for more or asked for detailed instructions or wondered why they have never made a big thing of this type of work.

It would be useful to know how it is done in more detail in case something comes up that needs the treatment. That would be the next logical step - not whether or not to give a display case, which is what I saw in your example, a different name.

As I said in the other thread - get on with it, please!

[osgood]

Spatial framing is intended be a term for that arm of framing that encloses space.

I wasn't aware that there was a need for a new term for which one or two already exist. Why???

In order to close the gap between what could be possible and what is being done requires a greater level of understanding between client, retail outlet, framer and supplier.
To create this it is possible that there is a need for a philosphical debate as well as a common understanding of terms which do not exist, to my knowledge TMK.

A philosophical debate??? on a framers forum??? about framing terminology??? Have I woken up on a different planet this morning???

[cubic framer]

[

I really don't know what al the fuss is about - you make things I'd call display cases and seem to think we are missing out - you've given an example of your work - been congratulated on it - no-one has begged for more or asked for detailed instructions or wondered why they have never made a big thing of this type of work.

It would be useful to know how it is done in more detail in case something comes up that needs the treatment. That would be the next logical step - not whether or not to give a display case, which is what I saw in your example, a different name.

As I said in the other thread - get on with it, please!

What methods are there available to the framer to make a dispaly case, do we define the methods of making the base or do we define the method of making the cover.

In fact why do I differentiate between cover and base. After all a Case is a case is a case......!!

Is it late to try to try to interest those that frame in picking up the mantle left by their predecssors.

I ask one question, how many methods are there available to the framer to make a transparent cover, if you think that the answer to this question is irrelevant to the craft of framing then my place here on this forum is also irrelevant.

[Roboframer]

I ask one question, how many methods are there available to the framer to make a transparent cover

Hundreds - well, scores maybe, because we can research outside of our trade if need be. The question, for me, is what demand is there to?

a. From my customers as in what they bring in for framing
b. To them - i.e. what I want to display for sale in my shop.

if you think that the answer to this question is irrelevant to the craft of framing then my place here on this forum is also irrelevant.

Of course it's not irrelevant - many framers make display cases of some sort.

So - anyway - are you going to get on with it, by telling us how many methods there are, what they are, where we can get the gear - do's and don'ts etc etc - or are you going to carry on asking us questions instead?

Ever made a case with museum glass? That would be something!

[realhotglass]

For what?

John,

CF originally left out the word 'need', asking "Does the Framing industry even to understand the difference?"
(I'm fairly sure CF originally used the extra word 'even' in there.)
So it was a little unclear initially what was being asked.

Now. I thought that the missing word was WANT, as in "Does the Framing industry even want to understand the difference?"

I consider that most framers understand the differences, but again it's a geographical thing too (esp with our group here with participants mainly through the UK , but also Aus and the US.

Eg. Framers in the US routinely use acrylic cases and frame-able acrylic boxes for difficult 3D items.
Here is Aus I get calls from all over asking about certain job ideas.
Can't say for sure about the UK.

Don't you folk get people wanting footys framed (or I should say displayed !) ?
Items like bulky flower bouquets, footballs (as in those funny round ones you have over there), basketballs, and just about anything clients might want to display.

Yesterday I got a call from a local framer here asking about a case for a small steam engine his father-in-law hand made some years ago.
I met this wonderful old fellow at a local Framers Guild social event a few months ago, and sadly he passed away a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway, this engine was very special to him and now his family, so they want a home for it, and be able to hand it down to their son.

So, I am making them a nice custom size glass case, 500 w x 250 d x 310 h internal, 5mm glass for strength, timber Walnut stain base. The usual frameless top, polished edges. UV glued.
Cost. Special price for him under the circumstances of AUD$175 + gst (I might even let this one go through unofficially without our 10% GST, but please don't mention this the the ATO . . . Oh, I'll post an ATO joke I just remembered on the Members only section shortly).

Anyway, point is this will work, and work very well.
They can take the top off and touch it of they want, it's fully viewable in good light, not in a bulky dark box sticking off the wall.
Would also work in CF's case design of course, just a little different in look.

Glass display cases can open up a new concept of 'displaying' an vast array of 3D items for framers and their clients, many more than could be framed practically in 3D to hang on a wall.

If the original question was asked "Does the Framing industry even want to understand the difference?"
That is the really crucial matter . . . many framers are so set in their ways of past, too busy to look at new ideas, a a very few just don't see potential solutions for lack of vision.

Open your mind to this a little and you might see the potential.

But then, you've got to have it available / be able to do it yourself, and now Cubic has to make his intentions know if people do show a further interest.

[Not your average framer]

Spatial framing is intended be a term for that arm of framing that encloses space.

This could be a very helpful topic. The technical difficulties in constructing such enclosures are often extremely challenging.

The ability to do this to a higher quality has existed for more than 40 years, examples of the range of quality and potential applications have been demonstrated by previous generations.

It's a lot more than 40 years. The Victorians did this sort of work on a scale far greater than we do today and without the advantage of the technically advanced fixings and adhesives we have today. Many examples I have seen of their work far surpass what we do today.

Would I like to learn more about the techniques of how to do this sort of work? Of course! I think we all would.

[realhotglass]

Hundreds - well, scores maybe, because we can research outside of our trade if need be. The question, for me, is what demand is there to?

a. From my customers as in what they bring in for framing
b. To them - i.e. what I want to display for sale in my shop.

Ever made a case with museum glass? That would be something!

Boy, you two got in quick above !

It's entirely up the the visionary framer to grab something and run with it.
A shop display to see / explain how display cases will work, just like speciality glass samples for CC, Museum glass, etc.

Clients will say what a great idea for such and such we have at home.

Robo, would love to make a case with optically coated glass.
I can get 4mm, 6mm, and even 4.38mm lam (to block UV).

I have held up samples next to a soccer ball case, it is absolutely amazing how beautifully clearer this would look, not to mention the almost no reflection benefits.

Still to take the leap with buying this glass yet is premature.
I need to keep pushing for a more reasonable price.
Whether there is a price that suppliers can bear and the market can work with is another question altogether.

I wouldn't be using 2mm Museum, even with Cubics framed method (not fully framed but capped ?), and silicone (not enough join 'meat' for strength ?). A fine rebated frame would possibly be ok in strength up to maybe soccer ball size.

[osgood]

too busy to look at new ideas, a a very few just don't see potential solutions for lack of vision.

Les,
The issue with this topic seems to be that there is a total lack of "new ideas" here and the topic is going nowhere seemingly due to the originator of the topic not wanting to divulge anything here. Perhaps he has some deeply secret methods that no-one has ever thought of before and if that's the case, that's fine. I would like to know about new methods to determine whether they would be of benefit to me and my customers, but if they are not forthcoming, I don't mind a bit as I have never been totally stumped for a design for this type of framing.

Many of us have already done this type of framing in many ways. I know I have. Each one of the 3D frames I have done has been designed on it's own merits and the budget of the customer, which is quite normal for everyone, I'm sure.

Philosophical debates on the topic of terminology seems to me to be a waste of the limited time all of us have on this earth. That's my opinion and I'm not saying that everyone else should have the same opinion.

"Does the Framing industry even want to understand the difference?"
I can't speak for the industry, but personally, I understand that there are different ways to do 3D framing and that is what I need to know! I do not need a new term and I certainly do not see the need for a 'philosophical debate' on terminology.

[prospero]

I suppose most framers don't make display cases as you really need equipment other than Morso/underpinner. I'm thinking a good table-mounted router and possibly thickness planer and table saw to machine your own wood sections. Making a simple rectangular case would be easy enough with this type of kit. More challenging would be multi-sided cases.
The possibilities are endless. I suppose it all depends if there would be enough work in your area to make it worthwhile investing in the tools. Although if there is no other framer in your area who offers this service it could be a very lucrative enterprise. Personally, I don't know where I could go if I wanted a case made.

Worth a thought.........

[Not your average framer]

I wouldn't be using 2mm Museum, even with Cubics framed method (not fully framed but capped ?), and silicone (not enough join 'meat' for strength ?).

There are some very good UV curing cyanoacrylate glass adhesives which are more than strong enough. However the strongest bond is acheived when not bonding to the tin side of the glass, (thats the side which was in contact with the molten tin when it was manufactured).

Specialist glass companies like Bohle supply "tin side" detectors to detect the "tin side" vs "tin free side". Some glass companies use this sort of kit all the time. Also the edge of "tin side" can be ground clean under water, which prevents ground-off tin being deposited onto the grinding wheel and back onto the glass.

I suspect there's away of "getting by" without a "tin side" detector.

[Roboframer]

Personally, I don't know where I could go if I wanted a case made.

What about a fish tank?

You could do the rest and you know it would be sealed well!

[Not your average framer]

I still think this has the potential to be a very helpful thread, even if only us regulars are doing most of the posting. I'm already working towards getting some worthwhile specialist woodworking kit.

Currently, I'm preparing to buy a Legacy "Ornamental wood mill". They have a website at:

http://www.woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/legacy.htm.

I've been looking at these machines for a while now and with a little bit of imagination they can be used in ways which most users would never even think about, especially with a few home made add-on adaptors, etc.

They have a helpful DVD disc which shows how to use it.

[Moglet]

Framers in the US routinely use acrylic cases and frame-able acrylic boxes for difficult 3D items.

Here are some links to examples of the above that I've seen on The Grumble:

Shirt with Football in Acrylic "Bubble".

Venetian Mask in Acrylic Case.

And for contrast:

Venetian Mask in Shadow Box..

Several different approaches!

Les, I've visited your website to look at your display cases. I particularly liked the "all-glass" displays for the baseball hat and football!

I've also seen a framed school cap in a local pub (1" deep shadowbox with window mount). To me, it looks like a dead thing in the frame, it's so 'saggy'...

... you really need equipment other than Morso/underpinner ...

Or a friendly neighbourhood chippie while you're testing the market!