Framing Newbie - 101 questions

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matt scarlett
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Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by matt scarlett »

Although my friend used to work for a framing shop in the South West i just want to get some advice on when, where, how?

Quality is the top consideration. Having been to a few printing and framing shops, i find that people are too quick to blurt out the price. My view is; let's talk about the best Quality/Look for presenting my art, then tell me how much it'll cost. And I mean Quality!!

Also, I seem to get conflicting views on what archival is and isn't. The view being that if one places art work in the sun then 'Archival' goes out the window to a certain degree.

1) In terms of quality, what is the best framing/mount-board/glass combination method to use, and where online can I order such a custom framing set up?

for example: some use a cfc free foam-board backing, others seem to be using MDF.

2) In terms of transporting my framed artwork, what is the best recommended way of transporting artwork?

Again, i here others say 'No' to bubble wrap, and then i see others using it???

Something like this maybe? (see links below)

http://www.pencilneck.com/framing

http://www.pencilneck.com/crates
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prospero
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by prospero »

Hi and Welcome Matt. :D

You are right when you observe that the term 'archival' is a somewhat moveable feast. Two aspects: The quality of the materials and the techniques involved. The ideal situation is that a framed piece should be able to be un-framed with no trace that it had ever been in a frame. Had a picture in yesterday - fortunately the lady had taken it out the frame herself. It was a print, nothing valuable, but the mount had been stuck all around it with doublestick tape. On the print border. Totally unnecessary and no real advantage over doing it in the proper way.

As far as the archival qualities of materials, most mountboard made today is pretty sound compared with the stuff around when I started off. Rag board was an option back then but hardly any framers used it. It was hideously expensive compared to the 'cooking' variety and either white or ivory. It wasn't until the mid-eighties that white core board came in. If anything, the range of qualities of mountboard available today can be quite confusing. Lots of buzz words like 'Conservation', "Archival", "Preservation," etc which don't really mean a lot when you pick the bones out of it.

One thing that seems to be overlooked a lot of the time when agonising over conservation issues is the fabric of the artwork itself. If it's a paper-based work and the paper is acidic, the quality of the stuff that surrounds it is largely irrelevant. If the pigments in the media are fugitive then no amount of UV filtering glass is going to stop it fading. I frequently frame paintings on MDF panels. Some very expensive. Go figure.

The thing to remember is that all these conservation aspects are passive. They are intended to 'do no harm' as it says in the Hippocratic Oath. :P They won't make something that is fundamentally flawed better.

As far as having things framed online is concerned, it's OK up to a point. Far better to establish a relationship with a local framer. You can't beat direct contact with the person who will actually be doing the job. And then there is the non inconsiderable costs and risks involved in transportation.

Moving frames about. An minor art in itself. The main thing is to make sure the frames are not going to jiggle about and that the weight is spread. I prefer to place them on-edge rather than a big stack. Frames can be heavy and you want to make sure they aren't going to shift in the case of heavy braking or other violent manoeuvres. Bubblewrap? Not found anything better frankly. The only bad thing I have ever seen is was a fresh oil painting where someone had wrapped it in bubblewrap and it looked as though a giant squid had grabbed it.

If you are regularly moving lots of framed picture around then I should blow the trumpet of Hand Finishing here. :clap: Framed get knocked. All sorts of things can happen and nothing is worse than displaying a scruffy-looking frame at an exhibition. Factory finished mouldings can be very difficult to impossible to do repairs on. On the other hand, a hand-finished frame is relatively simple to fix -as long as the guy who originally finished it does the repair. Just recently I fixed a big one that had been caught by a freak gust of wind at a show. Went sailing across the grass by all accounts..... It survived fairly well considering. two corners gave and picked up a few scuffs. If it had been a factory moulding it would have been a write-off and an expensive one to boot. I fixed it and didn't charge. 8)
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Roboframer »

... and some would charge more to fix it than to replace a factory-finished frame completely.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by prospero »

Sorry...... that moulding is discontinued. :sadsmile:
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by simoonez »

Hi Matt and welcome.

Prospero has been quite comprehensive, framing is a minefield sometimes.

In terms of the very best, regardless of cost, I guess I would suggest using laminated AR UV glass - 99% light transmission, 99% UV protection and 0.5% reflectivity. It is expensive though, and there are arguments over how much those last few percent of UV protection actually help. In reality I'd use AR UV artglass - same as the other but single thickness and 92% UV protection. For mountboard I'd use artcare rag board - made from cotton and actively protects work.

Prospero is right in that we can't control what the work is made from, but I feel it's our job to do the best to protect the work from external sources, even if it is made from bread and cheese - we try and use the right materials and processes to make it last as long as possible. There is an artwork held by the Tate which is essentially a pale of sour milk. Somehow they've kept that for 20 odd years so far. Other works are replaced by the artist if appropriate - Damien Hirst's Mother and Child (divided) has been replaced before now.

Anyway, I digress..For the backing I don't think you can go wrong with artcare foamboard used with a good undermount, although again there's many folks who won't use it due to its somewhat softer nature than other backings. As Roboframer recently said on a different post, it's no more problematic than using glass on the front.

With regards to packaging, I don't know of problems with bubblewrap.. If something has to travel then I'll wrap it in bubblewrap then put a piece of hard board or mdf each side. Does the trick. A friend of mine used to run an art moving company and everything they moved went into custom made crates - soft on the inside hard on the outside.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Roboframer »

The word 'archival' has no technical specification but 'conservation' and 'preservation' level materials and methods have been established by trade bodies.

The mounting in the first video is not conservation/preservation, the hinge is attached to the window mount and it 'should' be attached to the under mount - there is no under mount! The hinges are also self-adhesive and there are methods more secure that use no adhesive in contact whatsoever.

The backing, whatever it's made from should not double up as a mounting surface, it should be free to move independently from the mount/under mount.
prospero wrote:The thing to remember is that all these conservation aspects are passive.
There are mount boards that are active, they incorporate zeolites and micro-chambers that turn pollutants in to harmless salts, these can even protect artwork from itself to a degree, for example newsprint, it's going to yellow - not as quickly with these boards around it though.
matt scarlett wrote:The view being that if one places art work in the sun then 'Archival' goes out the window to a certain degree.
It goes out the window totally.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by IFGL »

where are you based Mat, I am sure a framer on here will be somewhere near you with the relevant knowledge.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by JFeig »

I looked at those slick advertising videos.

The quality present is about average for "production limited edition prints". As presented it is not true preservation / conservation framing.

- Used standard glass - only ~45% UV filtering
- used pressure sensitive adhesive
- did not mount the art to the mount board (undermount)
- no idea on if any conservation filler board used- in addition to the undermount
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matt scarlett
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by matt scarlett »

first, a big 'THANK YOU' for your help, advice and contributions.
IFGL wrote:where are you based Mat, I am sure a framer on here will be somewhere near you with the relevant knowledge.
I live in Plymouth, Devon. Been to a few framers, and like I said, my friend is advising me as best he can, but he left the field 6/7 years ago.
Roboframer wrote:
The mounting in the first video is not conservation/preservation, the hinge is attached to the window mount and it 'should' be attached to the under mount - there is no under mount!
So, instead of using 2 pieces of mountboard, one to tape the picture to, and the other as the 'Window', Owen (the guy in the video) is using one piece of mountboard for the window, taping the artwork to the window and essentially a piece of foam board for the backing ... is that right?

I'm guessing that its done for 'cost efficiency' reasons?

I saw in this Logan Picture framing video (link below), that the reason for securing the print with only two strips of adhesive is to allow the print to move (expand/contract) thereby minimizing/eradicating damaging the print, and to limit the adhesive that comes in contact with the print. Good idea or not?

Watch from around 2:45

LOGAN DIY Picture Framing Tips and Tricks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBBJVOyIfbs
Roboframer wrote:
The hinges are also self-adhesive and there are methods more secure that use no adhesive in contact whatsoever.
Like .... ?

JFeig wrote:I looked at those slick advertising videos.

The quality present is about average for "production limited edition prints". As presented it is not true preservation / conservation framing.

- Used standard glass - only ~45% UV filtering
- used pressure sensitive adhesive
- did not mount the art to the mount board (undermount)
- no idea on if any conservation filler board used- in addition to the undermount
Again, I assume that the method by Owen (in the video) is for cost effectiveness?

http://www.pencilneck.com/framing

That's good, but I'm also looking to present a 'Quality' package. So for a true quality product what do you suggest, that all the points picked up need to be addressed?



One thing I do like in the video is the 'colour marker' thing on the edge of the frame, before its constructed .. or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I went to a gallery last week, saw a piece for £6,700 or so. What caught my eye was not the artwork, but in the corner I could see that the frame was misaligned, exposing bare wood under the 'gold leaf' finish. Is this acceptable, or am I a troublesome perfectionist?
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by prospero »

Re. corners....

In an ideal world you wouldn't need to colour the edges. Moulding is very accurately machined in the main and properly cut and joined should not show any lines on the mitre. But wood is an organic material and it can bend and twist. So sometimes you get tiny misalignments. These will be apparent of some mouldings more than others. Wide flat whites are a pain. It's mostly a judgement call if the join is acceptable or not. One side of the join lifting up a tad over the other is one thing, gaps are another. Gaps are never acceptable IMHO. Not only do they look rough, but the integrity of the join is compromised. The area which the faces meet and therefore the gluing surface will be severely reduced. The term in the trade is "Credit Card Corners". :P

Of course if you do hand-finished frames you don't have to worry about any of this as you make the frame and then apply the finish. Making good any indiscretions in the process.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Roboframer »

matt scarlett wrote:Roboframer wrote:The hinges are also self-adhesive and there are methods more secure that use no adhesive in contact whatsoever.
matt scarlett wrote:Like .... ?
Like platform mounts, mounting strips, corner pockets (not the ones you buy, ones you make yourself with 'legs' that pass through the mounting board) and, possibly, encapsulation ... to name a few..... most actually!
Roboframer

Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Roboframer »

matt scarlett wrote:So, instead of using 2 pieces of mountboard, one to tape the picture to, and the other as the 'Window', Owen (the guy in the video) is using one piece of mountboard for the window, taping the artwork to the window and essentially a piece of foam board for the backing ... is that right? I'm guessing that its done for 'cost efficiency' reasons?
Or ignorance, or couldn't-give-a-stuffness, but yes, that's what he's doing and many do that and worse/with worse materials on stuff that deserves better.

The window mount should be hinged to an undermount of the same quality along one longest edge and if to conservation standards with gummed linen tape, which is good anyway, self adhesive tape leaves a sticky 'spine' - gummed tape dries.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by StevenG »

"One thing I do like in the video is the 'colour marker' thing on the edge of the frame, before its constructed .. or am I barking up the wrong tree? "

This is the way I was taught - I do it everytime now as routine, I've seen some corners open at exhibitions/hotels etc but normally I see it when glue hasn't been used.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Graysalchemy »

I use a colour marker on black mouldings, I only ever have a problem with black. :giggle:

To be honest that video is a lot of Bull*hit aimed at the end user who hasn't really got a clue about framing. It is a sales pitch easily pulled apart by anyone with a little knowledge including any discerning collector :wink: .

They go to the expense of truview glass but can't mount it properly in a hinged window mount :head: :head: .
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by matt scarlett »

Before we go any further, I guess i better show you some of my artwork. Laugh all you like, its the best i can do!

http://surfandsound.wordpress.com/category/art/

Forget about the Bic Biro stuff, what I'm hoping to frame and sell first are the pen and ink works. In consultation with one local framer we decided on a black mount and a thick black frame.

http://surfandsound.wordpress.com/2014/ ... s-pen-ink/

I'm in the process of doing other works, but I like to stay within the realms of black and white, as I'm not very good with colour.

I feel like I've opened a can pf worms here. The art ... I can do. Getting them printed ... simply enough. The framing .... I'm learning but its a steep learning curve. So how many of you build your own frames?

My only brush with woodwork is in building subwoofer enclosures for car audio enthusiast ... but i don;t have a workshop anymore so that's come to a grounding halt. I'm willing to learn!

http://surfandsound.wordpress.com/category/sound/


So tape is bad, and there are other better/different methods for mounting the print, which by very dint of the lack of adhesive on the print, makes it a bit more 'conservation' and 'archival' friendly?

Do you think at this early stage it would be better for me to get into the whole 'build the frame yourself' or should I go to a framer, 'TELL them' how I want my prints to be framed, and go from there? I have no real studio space, and so no real space for anymore equipment other than my drawing board.

Glass - I like the anti reflective idea. My friend also suggested museum glass as being the 'best'. I've seen the Tru Vue website and a few videos. Any other suggestions (link please)?
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by prospero »

Nice Work. :D

BW drawings do require careful design as far as framing goes. They are delicate and a 'showy' frame can kill them dead. First thoughts - a generous mount of just the right tone of off-white. The paper colour needs to harmonise with the mount. Maybe a double mount using the same colour.
A dark grey (off-black :lol: ) frame in a simple profile. Important not to introduce colour into the framing IMHO.

That being said, sometimes the most unlikely frames work. :wink:


I would go for AR glass. I think maybe Museum would not be strictly necessary. If you want to test just how light affects the media, scribble on a spare piece of paper and cover half of it. Put it in a sunlit windowsill and keep checking to see if there is a difference between the two halves.
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matt scarlett
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by matt scarlett »

Graysalchemy wrote: including any discerning collector :wink: .
What would i need to do to please/attract a discerning collector? What do they expect?
Graysalchemy

Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Graysalchemy »

I think a well presented piece of art framed to a minimum of FATG conservation level, that would be higher than what the two main print publishers would do most of their work which I have seen is akin to what we see in the video less the truview glass.
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by matt scarlett »

Graysalchemy wrote:I think a well presented piece of art framed to a minimum of FATG conservation level, that would be higher than what the two main print publishers would do most of their work which I have seen is akin to what we see in the video less the truview glass.

Thanks for that. I went to the FATG website and found a framer near to me, unfortunately none of the framers I went to are on the FATG website! I've flashed over and email, guest I'll wait to see what they say. Maybe early next week, I'll to check them out.

http://www.artframesolution.co.uk/plymo ... amers.html
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Re: Framing Newbie - 101 questions

Post by Graysalchemy »

I am not an FATG memeber or 'Guild Commended' (don't get me started) but I do frame to FATG standards where appropriate. If you talk to a local framer about how you want something framing then I am sure they would oblige if notthere will be one who will. :D
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