Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

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Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by ComeOnYouReds! » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 7:01 am

I've been asked to supply 2 frames in Dutch black ripple moulding.... and I don't know where to start.
Rose and Hollis do a 3" plain wood and gesso reverse which I could decorate accordingly, but guess what, the customer does not want the reverse profile, he's looking for scoop shape, same width.
Anybody know ANYTHING about this ?

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Framemaker Richard » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 7:41 am

I also had this enquiry a week ago, I make them but not quick enough in this case. I suggested he try Geoff Peach who makes his own ripple mouldings using a router. Various other makers out there who do their own versions, Victoria Frames in St Albans do a scoop shape for an easy start... There is a youtube video showing a machine used to make the mouldings, basically a chatter cutting method.

You can get ripple mouldings from Jakob Schiffer in Austria, then you apply them to any suitable profile.

http://www.flammleisten.at/index%20englisch.html

If you are using a stock moulding (say R&H A138) then the moulding would need some slight modifying to make it easy to apply the runs of ripples, on A138 I make the outer high point flat, and the inner moulding needs a little right angle cutting into it. Then join the frame, apply the ripples, and do an ebonised polish finish.

I have an order for one at the moment, won't be ready for a while though, but will post a picture when done.

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by highlande7 » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 1:40 pm

Hello Richard,

I wonder if you could help me please?

I have tried Jakob Schiffer who essentially constantly failed to reply. I have also tried a company in Canada, same problem, and an expensive company in London. I have an Eastern European portrait miniature dated around 1650-1720 and have had a spandrel made for it out of pear wood. I am now looking for dutch ripple mouldings. I am in no hurry.

Many thanks,

Aros Mathieson
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by poliopete » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 3:04 pm

Hi ComeOnYouReds! and Aros :D

Re; Dutch ripple moulding - have you tried "Sudbury Picture Frames" :?:

Peter

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by prospero » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 4:21 pm

There's this one but not very wide...

http://www.djsimons.co.uk/index.php?rou ... gory_id=59
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by prospero » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 4:29 pm

If you don't mind a modicum of faffing about, take the R&H one and glue a piece of flat wood in the rebate.
Then cut a rebate on the outside which then becomes the inside. :P
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Jamesnkr » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 4:33 pm

No help for Highlander, but it's not that difficult to turn a reverse into a scoop. Three passes on the table saw converts R&H's A644. Haven't tried it myself but I did once see a plan on Instagram where somebody was splitting up A644 and reassembling it into the stacked profile they wanted.
Scoop.JPG
Scoop.JPG (25.4 KiB) Viewed 10650 times

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Not your average framer » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 7:00 pm

Hi James,

That's a nice idea! I'm tempted to try that myself some time. I sell scoops much easier than reverse mouldings, but that has been slowly changing in recent years. I always thought that scoops looked more old fashioned than reverse mouldings. Perhaps it's just me!
Mark Lacey

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by JFeig » Mon 11 Dec, 2017 7:34 pm

Just make a machine like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFsthmB3kMQ

I took a 2 week class in making such frames about 20 years ago from Jonathan Thornton. The class also included the repair of gilded frames with perfect surface tone matching.
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by prospero » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 12:14 am

Thanks for posting Jerome. I've often wondered how it was done.

I won't be making a machine any time soon though. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Jamesnkr » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 10:25 am

This is perhaps a better video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E_FghU ... qQX5YH-aaH

What I want to know is how Geoff Peach does it with a router.

And of course one disappears into the YouTube rabbit hole; this is one heck of a frame to put round a simple 16th century Braun & Hogenberg map of Jerusalem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E_FghU ... qQX5YH-aaH

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by JFeig » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 1:28 pm

Although I do not speak Dutch, I jot the essence of the video. The key to the movement in the modern machine is the green cogged rails that control the designs shape.
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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by highlande7 » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 6:37 pm

I should like to thank all contributors for their kind suggestions and prospero in particular as I've gone with his D J Simons suggestion ; just what I was looking for! :clap: :D

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Framemaker Richard » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 10:11 pm

Hi Highlande7, only just seen this topic... glad you found a solution

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Not your average framer » Tue 12 Dec, 2017 11:20 pm

Some of the engineering to make the equipment to do this is a good deal easier and less complicated than things may appear at first glance. The two strips which impart the movement to the moulding as it passed through the machine do not need to be the same shape as the motion required. Do not confuse the motion required on the wood being machined with the shape required for these sliding strips. I'm an ex-design engineer and design engineers learn stuff like this.

The motion imparted by sliding these two profiled strips against each other is called "Simple Harmonic Motion". If these two strips feature a series of semi-circular shapes which run over each other, one semi-circular shape cannot drop all the way down between two touching semi-circular shapes, because the width of the semi-circular shapes limits the amount of penetration of these shapes between each other. If the semi-circulars shapes are the same radius of both strips, then the resulting movement will conform to "Simple Harmonic Motion" and there are plenty of cheap "off the self" ready made components which will be the right shape and size.

Grinding the profile on to the flat cutting blades is not particularly difficult either, narrow cutting disks for angle grinders can easily be used for doing things like this. I have various old fashioned wood planes and sets of old fashioned moulding plane blades, which are very much easier to use than most people would expect. The secret is in knowing how to set up and use these planes and sharpening, or shaping the blades.

None of this is rocket science and back in the last 60's, when I was an apprentice, most engineering apprentices were required to learn to do most of this stuff. There's not a lot stopping those who want to do stuff like this from constructing the means to make their own home made ripple cutting facilities.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Jamesnkr » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:33 am

Not your average framer wrote:I always thought that scoops looked more old fashioned than reverse mouldings. Perhaps it's just me!
There's a certain irritation from the existence of much nicer frames in 'reverse' than in scoop. For goodness sake, think I, 'reverse' is obviously the wrong way round, so why not make it the right way round first...

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 9:55 am

Hi James,

I think much the same as you, but moulding designers are usually thinking that traditional is all about the past. Incidentally, using a router to make rippled mouldings is not hard to get your head around once you realise that the router does not have to be at right angles to the wood that you are machining.

Angle the router over by 45% sideways to the dirrection of feeding the wood and fit a small 45% pointed router bit in the router and you can produce a flat surface to your ripples. Using a straight fluted bit, still at 45% and you can separate between the different ripples with a narrow V-groove. There's not really any particular need to get specials router bits ground to order as the existing range of "off the shelf" router bits is already plenty.

The rest comes down to imagination and lateral thinking.

BTW, going back to flat fixed blades, narrow cutting disks for small angle grinders are easy to use if you mount the angle grinder into a box, so that the edge of the cutting disc is exposed through the top of the box like a table saw. The blade can also be angled to use the corner of the cutting disc, obviously there are limitations regarding how deep, narrow curved recesses end the blade can be produced using this method.

In addition to this there are multi-shaped tapered sharpening stones used for sharpening carving chisels and the like, which will prove useful for putting the final finish on the profiles you will be wanting to, but you won't want to use these for removing much metal as this will take far too long.

It is neccesary to give a few cautionary words. Firstly the flat blades must be kept cool by periodically dipping into water to prevent over heating the blade material and secondly a safe method of holding the blade down to the table surface will also be important, forget about relying on your fingers to hold this down and control movements of the blade, it's too dangerous.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by prospero » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 10:55 am

Jamesnkr wrote: There's a certain irritation from the existence of much nicer frames in 'reverse' than in scoop. For goodness sake, think I, 'reverse' is obviously the wrong way round, so why not make it the right way round first...
Reverse mouldings come into their own when you get a 1 1/2" deep box canvas. :lol:
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Jamesnkr

Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Jamesnkr » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 1:41 pm

Not your average framer wrote:Angle the router over by 45% sideways to the dirrection of feeding the wood and fit a small 45% pointed router bit in the router and you can produce a flat surface to your ripples. Using a straight fluted bit, still at 45% and you can separate between the different ripples with a narrow V-groove.
Hi Mark, I am struggling to see any difference between a straight fluted bit at 90' and a 45' pointed bit at 45'? Likewise, the difference between a straight fluted bit at 45' and a rounded bit at 90'.

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Re: Dutch ripple moulding.... HELP !!

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 13 Dec, 2017 2:04 pm

It's simple! When the ripples are side by side by when one ripple is up and the next one down, and you want a flat surface to your ripples, then the vertical straight flute moulding will not produce a flat top to the track of the rippled surface. This is because as the ripples slope up and down the router rounded edge on the router bit is cutting a curved surface not a flat surface.

However, the 45 degree pointed router bit coming in from the side at 90 degrees to the direction of feeding the moulding is presenting a flat cutting action if the 45 degree router bit is angled at 45 degrees so that the 45 degree on the side of the cutter is now horizontal to the wood of the moulding.

When presenting the straight flute cutter at 45 degrees to the wood to get a V-groove, you can not only get less tendancy to run off due to grain variations in harder woods, but you can still have the same router mounted at the same 45 degree angle and therefore spend less time switching from one set up to the other. You will get a very clean cut this way and won't need to worry about throwing up burrs on the edge.
Mark Lacey

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