Keencut - Poor Customer Service

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walnuttreeframing
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Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by walnuttreeframing »

Now don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Keencut products. I have a System 4000, a Laser mountcutter (soon for sale), a Proteus bench and a Rondo . I have just bought Jonathan's Ultimat Gold for which I needed a couple of spare parts costing £60. They arrived (without screws) and I unfortunately had to drill out one of the screws when fitting the part. I found a replacement bolt that did the job but it didn't match the others ( OCD?) No problem, I thought I'll ask Keencut for this small M5 12mm Allen head dome bolt. Dave was very nice and asked me to confirm the part- which I did by email only to be told that it would cost me £8.70 for two of these screws. I rang and said -" I've just bought these parts from you, can't you just pop them in an envelope?" Apparently not.....

I know that time is money blah,blah, but really, a couple of bolts for a good customer? Perhaps they have too much of a monopoly in the UK

So I'm buying 50 of these very bolts from Screwfix for £2.86 and am happy to send anyone who wants some one or two free of charge.
Roboframer

Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Roboframer »

Bad customer service or just (apparently) overpriced bolts?

Good customer? All your gear bought second hand bar the recent £60 spend?
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Not your average framer »

I doubt if the screws from Screwfix are the same quality as the screws used by Keencut. Cheap rolled thread screws are made from a lower grade steel than engineering quality cut thread screws, which will tighten up much better with less risk of stripping the thread in the part that the screw is going into.

£8.70 does not sould like a lot of money to keep your system 4000 in tip top condition.

BTW, I worked for most of my working life as a design engineer and believe me all manufacturing companies are very particular about specifications for screws, or fasteners and not without good reason.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Steve N »

Always found them to be very helpful , quick and reasonably priced :clap: :clap:
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Graysalchemy »

The time I used them for a replacement part I was very happy, excellent service. At the end of the day you have a piece of specialist equipment used for doing a specialist Job. They have got rent rates and wages to pay just like anyone else, and probably work on a lot tighter margins than you do. £8.70 may seem a lot for a couple of bolts but to get a machine up and running which will make you thousands over its working life is minimal.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by easypopsgcf »

Another positive experience here, I simply asked them about the poly bushes on my ultimat gold, just checking the price/availability in case I ever needed them, couple of days later a set pop through my door FOC, can't get better service than that :)
markw

Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by markw »

Always found them fantastically helpful. Having someone there to be helpful costs money and whilst a couple of bolts seem expensive I suspect in reality they lose money sending them to you. Your discussion title does them an injustice.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by prospero »

I would agree with Mark about the screw quality. Small Allen headed bolts can very soon get the hex hole rounded making them impossible to get out without drilling.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by IFGL »

They didn't have to deal with you at all, they could have just referee you to a distributor.

Like others I have only had good experience with Keencut, many companies have a minimum order amount, simply because under that amount they loose money due to logistics, try asking lion to send you something small under the minimum order value.

I usually add some blades or cutting wheels to my keencut order if it falls below the minimum.
walnuttreeframing
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by walnuttreeframing »

Maybe I was a little hasty and hadn't considered varying qualities of steel. In fairness to Keencut, since having bought a new Laser in 1990 I have had good service. I retire from 28 years in HM Forces in 2 months and will have to get used to the harsh realities of the commercial world.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Dave »

Poor customer service may not have been the correct title, but you are quite correct that £8.70 is a lot of money for a couple of screws. I am a time served mechanical engineer by trade and worked for the buying department of a large manufacturing company for many years, and whilst it's a long time ago I still have some knowledge of engineering component costs.

The nature of business though is that major businesses all put huge mark up on spare parts, the more hands they pass through, the more mark ups added. There are businesses that do extremely well out of their aftermarket. I'm not suggesting that this applies to Keencut.

I recently paid £30 for a belt for my ride on mower. I was told that it would have been over double if it had come from the mower manufacturer. The mark up on that is absolutely ridiculous, sometimes you just have to swallow it and move on unfortunately.

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prospero
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by prospero »

Check the price of the bolts that hold the blades in a Morso. :shock:
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Not your average framer »

Those who have not worked in a manufacturing environment probably don't have any idea why things cost what they do. Unfortunately it's the hidden costs that most people don't see the need for, but they are still there.

Included in those costs is the time taken for the buyer to place the order with the supplier for the screws.

Someone will be required to check that the order is processed in the required time and that delivery takes place at the right time.

When the goods arrive, goods inwards inpection staff will check the goods against the delivery note, the companies purchase order and in this case measure the part and confirm that it corresponds to inspection datasheets.

The goods will then be released to the stores and the stores staff will enter them into the stores stock. Most companies rotate their stock, so the new stock will be isolated from any older stock and the new stock will be identified with a unique reference (usually the goods inwards inspection number).

When the suppliers invoice arrives the accounts department will check that the goods had arrived and been approved by the goods inwards inspection staff before considering paying for the goods.

When the company recieves a request for the same item as a spares order, customer services staff take the order and raise an invoice and a stores request for the item required.

Stores staff then supply the item required and up date the stores stock records accordingly. Someone then packs the item ready for dispatch, usually someone else carries out a final check and the packaging is sealed and dispatched. Packaging materials and cost of dispatch cost a lot more that some may realise.

All these actions cost money and therefore charges to cover these cost have to be included in the price charged to the customer. Finally a mark up is added to cover the companies profit margin.

These of us who own Keencut equipment would be very disappointed if they failed to charge a realistic rate and went out of business as a result. Personally, I'm pleased that they are smart enough to carge enough to continue in business in these difficult times and still be there when I need them!

It might be quite instructive to try and work out how much employee time would have be spent per screw to supply an Ultimat owner with the spare parts that where required. All considered the prices seemed very reasonable to me.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by IFGL »

To be honest Mark the £8 odd is a definite loss, I know sometimes (not often) there are sales I loose money on, like the £3 for a A4 Photo print I did today for a customer, the actual material cost is 15p, but ......not going on about it you know the rest.
Roboframer

Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Roboframer »

A rep from one of our suppliers (on the craft side) once told us, and it was a long time ago, that it cost his company £7:50 to raise an invoice. They have staff that do nothing but I suppose but if I were to send someone a couple of items with a value of pennies (including postage & packaging) but entered it as a job in my pricing software with the actual time taken to pick&pack, type and print the invoice, take it to the post box/office - well, if it was only 10 mins that would be pushing a tenner plus materials!
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Not your average framer »

Yes I know what you are saying, but nearly all companies operating these days seek to operate to ISO 900 or ISO 9001 quality standards and that means operating in ways similar to what I have described.

Are there times when these things become a bit stupid? - Oh yes! Unfortunately, when a company signs up to such a quality control system, there are regular audits and bypassing the system if discovered is classed as a quality failure. Do it once too often and the company loses it's right to claim ISO 9000 / ISO 9001 certification. Before the recession, (when companies had better sales figures), the same procedures still applied, but quite often low cost small items like this, were often supplied free as it would have been good for the companies image.

Unfortunately, these are much harder times and many people are saving money by buying secondhand and restoring old equipment to as new condition with a few replacement parts and although this may be saving the individual money, the corresponding reduction in business for the company does not go unnoticed, so they feel justified in charging the list price for even small value items. I think that it's quite easy to see the position from both sides and fully respect both positions. I think that some of these things are probably gone for the foreseeable future and that may be for quite a long time.
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by prospero »

It's right what you say Mark. When was the last time you got a free calendar or a year planner or any of the other little gizzits that once were commonplace. :thinking:
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by Not your average framer »

Calendars are dirt cheap in bulk, it's the postage, packaging and typing out and sticking on all those labels that kills it. When a stand at the Spring fair does not generate enough business to pay for the cost of the stand, calendars are not justified either. I'd rather have regular visits from companies reps than all these other things.

Inspite of how things are, I'm often impressed by the efforts that companies still make to raise their game and show that they care. I recently recieved some moulding samples from Simons and was pleasantly surprised to see that they are now sticking Simons moulding I.D. labels on their samples. It's a great improvement, which will have cost them time and money to do it, but I find those little label are really helpful. The moulding samples were nice too!
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Re: Keencut - Poor Customer Service

Post by IFGL »

Lol, Simons :)

I have also received samples from Simons with the aforementioned labels, the codes written on the mouldings at the side of the label or written on the label but in a ilegible scral.

Simon are trying to be progessive but I get the feeling there is resistance from within the ranks.

I no longer keep paperwork in a physical form, it is now all pdfs, most of my suppliers email me the invoices, Simon just won't, even though their statements and credit notes are done this way, it is all off the same program and would save them at least the postage, it is a slow road with Simons, so I have to scan it, which dosn't take longer than filing it but still, pull your finger out Simons.

Just to get in before people tell me about having to keep paper for 12 thousand years, HMRC hasn't required you to keep paper for at least 10 years now, Pdfs are the digital format they prefer, you are required to keep them backed up though, cloud and one drive does the job.
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