Framing a tapestry for damp location

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spionkop
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Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

I am a new menber to the forum and require some advice from your members.
I have been asked to frame a quite large (150cm X 90cm) tapestry. This was created by a friend of ours after the death of her daughter and has been hanging in the local church for the last nine years. However the church is rather damp and signs of mould and insect infestation has appeared on the back, fortunately not affecting the artwork.
I have produced a deep rebate oak frame and the makeup is 4mm Acrylic glass, 10mm slip spacer, Tapestry frame (18mm) and 4mm marine plywood backboard.
My dilemma is, should I silicon seal the Acrilic glass and the plywood backboard into the frame to make it completely airtight?
Any help and advice would be very welcome
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by David McCormack »

Welcome to the forum :D

I'm not an expert in these matters but I would seriously consider having a conservator look at this and get rid of the mould and insects before sealing everything up!

Again, I don't know much about marine plywood but I would consider a barrier of some sort between the plywood and the tapestry... maybe something like TYVEK

Edit:
I may have got this wrong but when you say the mould and insect infestation has not affected the art do you mean it is just on the back of the tapestry or it is on the back of the original frame? Somehow I imagined the tapestry was hanging without a frame hence why I recommended you visit a conservator :?
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prospero
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by prospero »

Hi spionkop. :D

When you say 'tapestry', do you mean a woven thing like a carpet or one that has been stitched with wool
onto a open weave canvas? I suspect it's the latter.

Rather than trying to seal it up, which is nigh-on impossible, I would be more inclined to keep it open in free circulating
air. But it needs to be inspected regularly, front and back and vacuumed thoroughly.

Wool on canvas is a fairly durable thing but if the wools are natural then moths are your worse enemy. I'm not a great expert
on treatments. Best consult a good fabric restorer, if you can find one. There are spray anti-moth carpet treatments but which may
be of benefit but they need to be applied regularly.

If you do decide to seal it up within a frame then I would seriously avoid plywood as woodworm love it. Something like Coroplast
sheet would be better. And make sure it is not hung tight to a cold wall. Free air circulation behind is a good thing.
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by Not your average framer »

This is sounding like a job for someone with some serious specialist knowledge and the correct equipment to suit. The answer to removing either mould spores, or killing any live insect eggs will usually be by fumigation using thymus. This is a very dangerous substance which is life treatening to all known organic life and that includes you and me.

Also the tapestry needs to be examined by an expert to determine what needs doing and what it is going to cost. I dread to think what this is likely to cost to do this. Sorry to be blunt about this, but for myself, I would be quite happy not to get involved with this at all, as reputations are hard enough to build up and one job like this if it did not go to plan could result in plenty of the wrong sort of publicity.

I would leave well alone!
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spionkop
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

Thank you all for your very prompt input. To clarify the job further, the tapestry is stretched onto a 50 X 18mm wood frame and the back is covered in material. This is how it was previously hung in the church. The embroidery is of fine silk and was untouched by the damp or the small infestation which attacked one corner of the back fabric and has now been treated and repaired.
I know that humidity will equalise itself throughout ventilated areas which is why I thought that if I ran a silicone bead arround the front glazing and the backboard it would eliminate that happening, at least for a good few years, and keep infestation out.
I take your point prospero about the plywood but I have bought 4mm marine ply which is impregnated with resin and which the insects do not like. It has made me think though, perhaps I should put a membrane between the ply and the tapestry to prevent any chemical deteriation.
Good to get your views.
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by JFeig »

Silk is a very finicky natural fiber. It is very susceptible to light damage that can greatly reduce is strength.

Due to the nature of a church's makeup (I presume masonry walls) and unknown HVAC stability, I would not suggest a DIY sealed enclosure. Condensation might result in further damage.

At the least I would suggest a 99% uv filtering glazing and placement of the tapestry away form direct light.

If you have a large enough budget, a microclimate enclosure would be advisable. Such an enclosure would have the oxygen and humidity removed/stabilized to avoid condensation, mold and pests.
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by kartoffelngeist »

Not your average framer wrote:
I would leave well alone!
Yep.
Thanks,

andrew
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spionkop
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

Hmm, I hadn't considered condensation. The location for this has been selected between two windows facing into the dark interior of the church and I had decided to use 4mm UV stabilized Plexiglass for glazing. The walls are sandstone with plaster lining so I am using rubber buffers to keep the frame clear of the wall surface and of course the church is not HVAC controlled so I think that normal dry assembly will be the best option.
Many thanks for all of your help.
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by Not your average framer »

spionkop wrote:but I have bought 4mm marine ply which is impregnated with resin and which the insects do not like. It has made me think though, perhaps I should put a membrane between the ply and the tapestry to prevent any chemical deteriation.
Good to get your views.
Marine ply is not impegnated with resin, the epoxy resin is the glue which bonds the various layers of wood together. Unfortunately the hardener for epoxy resin contains formaldehyde and lots of it and the curing process is still continuing when you have bought the marine ply and formaldehyde is well known as harmful to works of art, paticularly to those on paper, or fabric.

You need to use something far more chemically stable as the backing material for a job like this. You have already been advised to use Coroplast (also known as Correx) and this is made from polypropylene, which is a highly stable polymer and does not degrade and release nasty chemicals over time. It is well worth avoiding anything known to release any volatile, or highly active chemical elements, or compounds, because these same ingredients will affect many other materials in proximity the the original materials.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider marine ply as a suitable material for conservation framing of an artwork on silk and I think that I'm not the only one who will say this.
Mark Lacey

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prospero
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by prospero »

Yes, wood and fine embroidery is not a good combination. You could take steps to isolate it but using Coroplast would
solve the issue and be much lighter.

If the budget will permit the best thing to glaze it with is probably http://tru-vue.com/solution/optium-museum-acrylic/
Some of the threads used may not be very lightfast.


Get a quote for a ready-cut piece but be prepared for a shock. :shock:
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spionkop
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

Thank you both for your latest comments for my project. I fully understand your reasoning about the chemical effects of the plywood so Coroplast it will be.
I now find that I have a problem finding a supplier for a one off, cut to size Acrylic sheet (1440mm X 765mm X 4mm) that is UV filtered.
Perhaps I can explain the story behind my project:-
Mr & Mrs Dalton were our immediate next door neighbours back in the 1960/70's. They lost their daughter aged 5 years in 1968. To help them through this Mrs Dalton began creating a silk tapestry and worked on it for over thirty years. When it was finished they presented it to the local village church and it was hung there, without any protection for about ten years, When the backing was found to be deteriating it was taken down and has been treated and repaired and kept in storage in their home. Mrs Dalton will be Eighty years old in Oct this year and I was asked if I could make a frame for this work of art so that it could be displayed once again in the church. They still live in the house, right opposite the village church and I could not refuge. I dont intend to charge anything for my work so budget is limited but I do want to make a repectable job of it which is why I have opened up this discussion with the experts.
I hope I haven't bored you too much but I have to say that your combined help has been very much appreciated.
Bryn
Jamesnkr

Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by Jamesnkr »

You won't manage to make it completely airtight. Not possible. So water vapour will get in.

If it stays in the church this tapestry will rot, fade, decay and otherwise be eaten whatever you do. Neither the problem nor the solution is in the framing, they are a result of the church.

Keeping it *well* away from the wall is the only thing you can do to help so as to allow ventilation. As has already been suggested, my inclination would be not to frame it at all.

(Could it be sealed into a double glazing unit? How do they make those? One of those would be moisture-tight - for a couple of decades anyway.)
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by David McCormack »

spionkop wrote:I now find that I have a problem finding a supplier for a one off, cut to size Acrylic sheet (1440mm X 765mm X 4mm) that is UV filtered.
Try this company theplasticshop.co.uk They will cut their UV acrylic to size, click on 'Further options available for this item.' You won't get any change from £300 for 5mm!

I'm sure you know, but with acrylic you need to make sure the product is UV filtering/absorbing in order to protect the art... acrylic with UV resistance is designed to protect itself from UV damage and not the art!
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spionkop
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

As explained in my story about the project, this work of art has already spent about 10 years on the wall of the church without any protection whatsoever and did incur damage. I hope that what I am doing will at least give it a new lease of life and give some satisfaction to Mr & Mrs Dalton on her 80th birthday.
Jamesnkr

Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by Jamesnkr »

spionkop wrote:As explained in my story about the project, this work of art has already spent about 10 years on the wall of the church without any protection whatsoever and did incur damage.
You didn't actually mention that it was framed...

Anyway, I think that framing it will make the problem worse. Moisture will get in but not out.


The more I think about it, and I've no idea if it would be possible to persuade them to do it, but try talking to your local Double Glazing people and see if they would seal it into a DG unit. These are not very expensive, about £100 for one the size you want. And then you just slot the DG unit into your frame. Stick the unit in with silicone sealant and then you'll be able to see the wall through the glass where there's no tapestry.

Not Everest, but somebody with a small shop on an industrial unit who makes double glazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJlUaJMAWBg
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by spionkop »

No, although the tapestry is stretched over a wood frame, that is how it was hung in the church. No protection at all.
I know a local double glazing company but I suspect that as the tapestry with its frame is 18mm thick, they may have a problem with spacer beading to get the gap between the panes. But I will ask the question.
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Re: Framing a tapestry for damp location

Post by Framemaker Richard »

Do a search for 'sealed picture frame enclosure' or something similar, a few articles out there by Hugh Phibbs and others. I am by no means an expert on these methods but have made three for items hanging in less than ideal environments. Honestly I think if you were to do a sealed enclosure it would be as much as you could practically do.

I am pretty sure that acrylic is not a good water vapour barrier...

To describe it briefly, glass on the front, mounts or spacers, stick some Art-Sorb sheets in the back (these maintain a 50% RH), then back with Correx. You then use a sheet material called Marvelseal on the back which folds around and is sealed to the glazing with 3M 415 tape or ideally with a hot melt adhesive (one type is recommended, can't remember ref), then put this sealed package in the frame, add another Correx back and that's it. It's important to note that you want to have the materials as close to 50% RH for week or so before you assemble the enclosure.
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