Lost property

Discuss Picture Framing topics.

PLEASE USE THE HELP SECTION
WHEN SEEKING OR OFFERING HELP!
Post Reply
louisesimon
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed 18 Jul, 2012 8:00 pm
Location: Stroud
Organisation: Peckham Pictures (closed)
Interests: Framing, Art, Photography
Location: Stroud
Contact:

Lost property

Post by louisesimon »

I've had a client who in the process of placing an order that totaled around £800 has gone bust and left a trail of debt and fled back to New York. The order was placed last November. As his Gallery was on the same site as the workshop I never took a deposit.

I still have the framed artworks, legally where do I stand on disposing of them?
User avatar
pramsay13
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue 27 Sep, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Stonehouse, Lanarkshire
Organisation: Picture Framer (ML)
Interests: picture framing (no, really!) sport, music
Contact:

Re: Lost property

Post by pramsay13 »

I have in mind that you have to hang on them for six months, which you have already, before disposing of them although I have a feeling there is a difference between English and Scottish laws.
I'm sure someone will be along to help with a definitive answer.
That said I have a framed print that I have had for almost 2 years. Although I'm sure legally I would be correct to sell it on, I don't want to do that and have the person turn up the next day looking for it.
We've debated on here before about taking deposits (I don't).
JFeig
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu 23 Sep, 2004 8:31 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Organisation: minoxy, LLC
Interests: non-fiction knowledge
Contact:

Re: Lost property

Post by JFeig »

Although the current laws are different here in the US, they have the same roots. Check into "tradesman liens" for the specifics where you live.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... ec871bb0b5
Jerome Feig CPF®
http://www.minoxy.com
User avatar
prospero
Posts: 11492
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Lost property

Post by prospero »

If he has been declared bankrupt then somewhere there will be somebody slicing up his assets. So it might not
be a good idea to dispose of the goods just in case they get claimed. If the same bunch are dealing with his debts then
you could get your name on the list. Doubtful if you would get all all you are owed. :| If anything.

I had a framed painting that was not picked up. A mate of mine had a big house that he operated as a B&B and wanted some
pictures for the walls. I let him have a load of stuff on the condition that it was strictly on loan and not to sell them. Got them
out from under my feet and helped him. Lo and behold the missing guy pitched up one day and asked for his painting. I said it was
'in storage' and I would get it out in a few days. I did. That was over 20 years ago and I still have it. :lol:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
Jamesnkr

Re: Lost property

Post by Jamesnkr »

The frames are still yours. If he did go bankrupt and creditors are after him then they may be prepared to buy the frames from you.

You are not entitled to sell the art to recover your costs UNLESS your contract specifically permits you to; if it does then you would have to return to him/his creditors proceeds in excess of your bill.

Equally, nobody has the right to take the framed pictures away until you have been paid.

https://www.theframersforum.com/viewtop ... =9&t=15534

What would it be worth if you sent it to auction at Roseberys who are in West Norwood? (Probably not much...) If it's not worth anything then strictly you should be unframing it and posting it back to him in order to get the junk out of your workshop. If it's not worth anything then why bother... Practically, does anybody connected with the creditors know you have this stuff?
Ed209
Posts: 437
Joined: Sun 05 Mar, 2017 8:22 pm
Location: Birchington-on-Sea, Kent
Organisation: Birchington Framing Centre
Interests: Guitar, woodwork, cycling Singing
Contact:

Re: Lost property

Post by Ed209 »

I have recently started up and was wondering about this as I do not intend on taking a deposit. Can I get them to sign something on the lines of if not paid for or collected within six months it becomes my property?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kartoffelngeist
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu 14 Apr, 2016 3:07 pm
Location: Aberdeen
Organisation: Rosie's Framers and Crafts
Interests: Framing, mental health, martial arts

Re: Lost property

Post by kartoffelngeist »

As long as you draw sufficient attention to it (it could be regarded as overly onerous...but maybe not, just don't try to hide it) then it should be ok. At least up here, English property law is a strange and unknown thing to me.

With a few exceptions, you can pretty much contract anything you want. As long as you're not trying to sneak things past people and they agree to it then a contract will supersede most legal principles.
Thanks,

andrew
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them in to the impossible."
Etsy
Facebook
Twitter

Jules007
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri 29 Sep, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: Salisbury
Organisation: Fisherton Framing
Interests: Photography, Art, Engineering, Travel

Re: Lost property

Post by Jules007 »

I'm also just starting out and I can see that it may be awkward to ask for a deposit or full payment beforehand if the client is a friend or a local business owner whom you know and have previously done business with, but otherwise I don't see a problem with asking for it. As long as you ask politely and in the right way it should be fine and the client should understand as it's not an unreasonable thing to do. I think that asking the client to sign something might be more awkward than asking them to pay for the job or even for a deposit.

As far as the framed artwork that hasn't been picked up is concerned, surely it's only the actual artwork that is in question. If they haven't paid in advance or left a deposit then surely the frame (moulding, mount, glass, backing board etc) is still yours. So if you carefully remove the artwork and store it somewhere safe, you then replace it in the frame with something of similar looks and size, you can sell the frame containing your artwork and at least make something back to cover the cost of the materials and your labour. Obviously you would only do this if you know about the client becoming bankrupt or when the client hasn't collected the job for a considerable period of time. If the client does eventually return or a debt recovery company turns up then you hand over just the artwork which is the only property which is actually theirs.
sable filbert
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 7:33 am
Location: Eastbourne environs
Organisation: framing
Interests: London, boats, bikes, ghosts

Re: Lost property

Post by sable filbert »

Jules007 wrote:I'm also just starting out and I can see that it may be awkward to ask for a deposit or full payment beforehand if the client is a friend or a local business owner whom you know and have previously done business with, but otherwise I don't see a problem with asking for it. As long as you ask politely and in the right way it should be fine and the client should understand as it's not an unreasonable thing to do.
The main reason I use (if asked by the client) is to say a deposit goes "some way" towards the cost of materials.
Hinting one is only asking for some of the initial costs seems to work well.

I have a small polite sign on the bench stating "A 50% deposit is appreciated". So most of the time, I don't have to ask.

When I started out (30 years ago) I once mistakenly had to justify the pricing elements of a frame, and it was messy.
Don't do this!
After this, my staff simply used to say, the accountant / computer / and that was that. :D
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Lost property

Post by Not your average framer »

A deposit also proves that you have a contract in law and therefore that you have rights when something like this happens. If someone has been appointed to recover this individually debts and is seeking to recover the artworks, then this can give you some leverage.

First you have already framed them and you are being quite reasonable in asking who is going to pay for your frames. After this if the artworks are to be removed from your frames, then you will also expect someone to pay you to do this as well.

Taking this matter to court will cost whoever is trying to recover these artworks some legal fees and court costs, so it may be a lot easier for them to come to an arrangement and save some money. Of course, from your position you will want payment before you release the goods, otherwise you let them take the matter to court.

There is the matter of goods held in trust and it may be worth getting some legal advice in writing to cover yourself before donig anything, which the other party may choose to object to. Don't forget there are two sides to any legal arguments and you need to make sure that anything which you decide to do is not going to come back and bite you later on.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Jamesnkr

Re: Lost property

Post by Jamesnkr »

Under *no* circumstances pay for legal advice. In OP's case it is £800 worth of framing. Raw materials probably £150-£200 some of which could probably be recycled anyway. So his loss is reasonably small apart from his time. The moment lawyers are involved then his likely loss immediately gets larger. So the moment you think about paying for legal advice, unframe the pictures and put the pictures in a drawer where they will sit quite happily for a few years until you bin them.
kartoffelngeist
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu 14 Apr, 2016 3:07 pm
Location: Aberdeen
Organisation: Rosie's Framers and Crafts
Interests: Framing, mental health, martial arts

Re: Lost property

Post by kartoffelngeist »

Jamesnkr wrote:Under *no* circumstances pay for legal advice. In OP's case it is £800 worth of framing. Raw materials probably £150-£200 some of which could probably be recycled anyway. So his loss is reasonably small apart from his time. The moment lawyers are involved then his likely loss immediately gets larger. So the moment you think about paying for legal advice, unframe the pictures and put the pictures in a drawer where they will sit quite happily for a few years until you bin them.
As someone with a legal background...sound advice!
Thanks,

andrew
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them in to the impossible."
Etsy
Facebook
Twitter

louisesimon
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed 18 Jul, 2012 8:00 pm
Location: Stroud
Organisation: Peckham Pictures (closed)
Interests: Framing, Art, Photography
Location: Stroud
Contact:

Re: Lost property

Post by louisesimon »

Update...

Sent him a polite email, and he paid me £100 said the rest would come in installments. Nearly covered materials cost so not too fussed. Even if his £100 is to stop me taking him to SCC i'm happy with that.
Post Reply