Large frame with narrow moulding.

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simoonez
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Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by simoonez » Tue 26 Sep, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi folks,
I've been asked to frame a drawing that measures around 1.8 x 1.5m. Not normally a problem - we've framed a lot bigger in the past. However the request is for 'as narrow a moulding as is humanly possible'. And for as little money as possible.
Client is a trusted regular and is basically asking me to push the boundaries a little.
Drawing is on mountboard and by request of our client, wants to be framed flush to the edge, no mount, and spaced away from the glazing. Moulding will be painted white as well.
I'd be much obliged if anyone might give thoughts on size of moulding, glazing type and depth of spacer you'd use that'd be wonderful.
One thing we have been graced with is time, we've got a few weeks.

Simon.

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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by Not your average framer » Tue 26 Sep, 2017 10:20 pm

If the frame can be deep enough to accommodate a "sub frame" hidden in the back of the frame, the sub frame can provide the additional strength and rigidity lacking in the narrow as possible frame requested by the customer, without the additional width of the sub frame being visible from the front.

There are specifically designed sub frame mouldings from various suppliers, there is still no reason why you can't use some suitable moulding that you already have in stock, or even a plain piece of timber from you local timber supplier according to your own personal preferences.
Mark Lacey

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prospero
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 8:22 am

That is a seriously big frame and even more serious with the glazing. And more serious still with spacers under
the glazing. Acrylic glazing is quite floppy so you will need 6mm thick.
Mark (NYAF) is on the right track with the subframe idea but I doubt if any of the subframe mouldings on the market
would be man enough for the job.

Here one I made earlier.

Image

Image

It's made from pine cladding with the 'tongue' side ripped off. You can see that rather than a mitre corner it's
made in two layers. The laminated construction makes it more stable and allows you to form half-lap joints without
the need for a lot of chiselling. Easy to put together, just glued and screwed. Compared to a mitred construction
it's immensely strong. The one pictured is around 5ft+ sq so yours will be a foot wider.

If using acrylic glazing you might consider ditching the spacer idea. Plastic is different to glass in that it doesn't attract
condensation in the same way. In some circumstances it's quite acceptable to have it in direct contact. This will allow you
to use thinner (3mm?) glazing thus saving a lot of weight. But... Plastic expands/contracts with the ambient temperature so
the outer mouldings needs a generous rebate width. This is going to complicate using a 'narrow as humanly possible' moulding.

These jobs are more akin to civil engineering than pure framing. :wink: :lol:
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by JFeig » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 12:20 pm

prospero wrote:These jobs are more akin to civil engineering than pure framing.
I would say mechanical engineering; but, that is micromanaging terms. Needless to say, it is engineering in any definition.

If acrylic glazing is used a larger rebate is needed to compensate with the flex of the material. I would suggest .375" - .5" rebate (9-12mm) with equally thick cantilevered
wood above the glazing and at least 2x +1x width of the molding. The x being the rebate. Load the art from the top and secure with the top rail that is screwed to the rest of the frame.
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 6:15 pm

prospero wrote:I doubt if any of the subframe mouldings on the market would be man enough for the job.
I don't think so either! Finding a narrow moulding with enough space for a adequately solid sub frame sounds like quite a chalenge.

How narrow is the customer expecting the moulding to be?
Mark Lacey

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prospero
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Wed 27 Sep, 2017 8:24 pm

The actual stem of the moulding could be as little as 10mm, plus maybe 12mm
for the rebate lip. Rebate depth about 40mm. That's just about the minimum
size by my reckoning. A tad wider would be better as it will have to be attached
to the subframe with screws. A pocket-hole jig would be handy for this. :wink:
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by kartoffelngeist » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 10:22 am

It's worth remembering...as narrow as humanly possible means just that.

So it'll be as narrow as possible for this size.
Thanks,

andrew
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prospero
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 2:18 pm

If you taped the whole inner package together inc. subframe with really strong tape, you could hang it on the
wall without a frame at all. :P :giggle: :clap: :) :lol:
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Jamesnkr

Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by Jamesnkr » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 2:55 pm

Prospero, if you put some glue in there too then you could just laminate the whole thing. No need even for the tape.

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prospero
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 3:00 pm

Jamesnkr wrote:Prospero, if you put some glue in there too then you could just laminate the whole thing. No need even for the tape.
Great Idea. :clap:

http://www.jbtoolhire.co.uk/details/bom ... oller.html
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by simoonez » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 4:15 pm

The work has been delivered now and is a mere 1.6 x 1.5m. Small mercies and all that.
As I have a little time on it I'm going to experiment. If it doesn't work then I've still got pretty long lengths of moulding to use elsewhere.
Call me crazy, but I'm going to try A140 ash -underpinned and cross pinned, 4mm acrylic, 12mm spacer, sub frame, and metal corner brackets. See what happens...
I'll post a photo when I can.

Jamesnkr

Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by Jamesnkr » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 5:00 pm

I'm calling you crazy! It's not thick enough to put screws into (meaningfully) from the subframe! I guess you could put nice brass screws through in the other direction - i.e. through the moulding into the subframe - and make a feature of them. Still think your corners will quickly pop as you can't - effectively - underpin it.

I wish you luck... ;)

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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 9:24 pm

I've just nipped down to my shop to look up Rose & Hollis A140 to see what we are talking about. Sorry, but for the dimensions involved in this job, A140 isn't gonna be strong enough to be handled after joining all four mitres. With that size of frame it's own weight and it's inherent floppiness will far too easily break it apart at the corners. If you are thinking about joining a frame of that size by underpinning, that's a serious challenge. For starters the area of contact between moulding lengths available for gluing needs to be much larger that than for a frame of that sort of size. While it may be true that ash is quite a tough wood it's only held together at the corners with glue and whatever supplementary fixing are employed.

You need to be thinking about some serious extra strength and extra gluing area to make this work. It is a fact that a mitre joint is one of the weakest carpentry and joinery joints that there is and there are limits to what underpinning wedges are going to do, in terms of adding any extra strength. It is not uncommon to see mitres reinforced on the rear face with large dovetail keys glued in crossing through both lengths of moulding at 45 degrees to add extra strength. I think the safest principle for anything of this sort of size is to not only make it strong, but add a significant safety margin too!

If you are considering being able to tackle large framing jobs on a regular basis, then it may also be worth considering some other construction methods instead of just joining corners with an underpinner. I'm not one of those who has chosen to pursue making really large frames on a regular basis, but there are a number of framers on this forum who do and are suitably geared up to do this. We are talking about biscuit joiners and the like. As I have not decided to go down this route, I'm not the best person to advise on such matters, so it's best if others with more experience answer such questions.
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prospero
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Thu 28 Sep, 2017 11:12 pm

FWIW/ the above subframe had a frame around that was 3.5" wide and 1 and-a-bit" thick. It's one of the chunkiest
mouldings you can humanly get. It doesn't look big on the scale of the frame though.
I joined it with two biscuit slots, underpinned and added supplementary 3" 'L' plates.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by simoonez » Wed 10 Jan, 2018 11:20 am

Hi folks,

Took me a while to get to the exhibition, but here's a pic of the finished frame
IMG_20180109_155449_644.jpg
IMG_20180109_155449_644.jpg (51.99 KiB) Viewed 5931 times
The moulding is A140 ash painted white, 3mm acrylic glazing, 12mm spacer. There is a narrow sub frame at the back screwed into the frame. It took some careful assembly but it's pretty sturdy as an object. It was taken to the gallery by men with a van so it took some low level abuse on the way over.

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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by prospero » Wed 10 Jan, 2018 1:55 pm

Nailed it!!! :lol: :clap: :arrow: :ninja:
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Re: Large frame with narrow moulding.

Post by StevenG » Wed 10 Jan, 2018 2:09 pm

looks great :clap: :clap: :)

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