You Tube video - Border Dimensions

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You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby span2iels » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:39 am

I have just completed a video on Border Dimensions/Proportions that members may find interesting. Those that have subscribed to my YouTube channel should get automatic notification.

The video is an extension of a seminar I gave at FAMA last year. It offers an alternative to the standard method of bottom weighting practised by many framers. It describes the mount sizes and proportions practised by the British Museum and many UK institutions. In addition, it describes how an image may be positioned at the optical centre, uses the Golden Ratio to calculate mount size and finally, offers number of single and multi-aperture mount diagrams.

The video can be accessed via this link: https://youtu.be/saAXM6vnd9k. I hope you find it both interesting and educational.

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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Jamesnkr » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:04 am

Thank you. One thing I cannot see, when you are 'visually centring' your picture, how do you determine the size of the mountboard in the first place?
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby prospero » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:51 am

That's an excellent video Mal.

Lots of framers scoff at bottom-weighting and some have the idea that it only applies to pictures hung high up. :roll:


It's all a question of a subconscious feeling of stability. I like to use this little trick: Ask someone to draw a triangle.
99.9% will draw it apex-up. :wink:
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby prospero » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:01 pm

As a matter of interest, I would be interested to know how folks deal mounting with 'awkward' stuff.
I'm thinking of prints with a wide panel beneath full of titles and signatures. If you work from the image
then the bottom margin would look too skinny. If you take the image+sig panel the image looks too high.
I've got a few tricks but would like to know others. :D
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Ed209 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:09 am

Very interesting must say I have watched that video quite a few times with a image,pen,paper, rule & calculator to hand and its slowly sinking in.

I like the way there is a formula to calculate things and get the right perspectives.

Its a lot more to think of and chance of mistakes having different side,top & bottom dimensions using a Keencut as opposed to a CMC but I will persevere, normally do bottom weighting anyway and can manage that ok now (as long as no one talks to me during the process)
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby newie31 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:30 pm

For some reason I can't play the video, it says the user has removed the video
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby span2iels » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:01 pm

Sorry I removed the video to make some alterations should be available soon.

For those who asked about the overall dimension from image size I have a default of 70 sides and top and 80mm bottom for standard bottom weighting. However, I am using differing ratios to work out the border dimension from the images size ; I use either 1.414(square root of 2) this ratio is used widely in the Islamic world especially in there AllHambra mosque near Seville, I also use the golden ratio 1.618 and then which ever I use then top should by 45% and the bottom 55% as in the video. Also consider the square root of 3 - 1.732 this will give you large top and bottom borders.

Hope this helps

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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Ed209 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:30 pm

Looking forward to the updated video hope there are going to be some examples of this square root business, I heard it mentioned a few times when I was at school (long time ago) but cant say up to now I have ever had the need to apply it to anything.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby span2iels » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:43 pm

The updated video of Border Proportions is now available by the following link:https://youtu.be/rAG1A00O9OU

Hope you enjoy it.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Jamesnkr » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:47 am

span2iels wrote:I have a default of 70 sides and top and 80mm bottom for standard bottom weighting.


i.e. 1.14

I use either 1.414(square root of 2)

I also use the golden ratio 1.618

the square root of 3 - 1.732


So something between 1.4 and 1.7 then. :wink: No need to over-complicate matters by bringing it down even to two, let alone three, decimal places. When you are losing 2mm of your extra 1cm bottom-weight in the rebate you are wasting a lot of time and effort - not to say running the risk of introducing mistakes - by trying to be so precise.

Don't mistake precision for accuracy. I can tell you that the time is 10.46 and 15 seconds precisely, but unfortunately I am an hour wrong so the time is inaccurate, for all that it is precise.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby span2iels » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:46 am

Thank you for your comments regarding ratios. One can find themselves between a rock and a hard place when mentioning ratios and the number of decimal places the ratio can be taken - it would seem that this maybe the case in this instance .

In many cases I round up or down to the nearest 5mm because as you mention it is easier and the opportunity to make mistakes is reduced. However, one of my interests is Islamic/Arabic geometry in which many of the ratios mentioned, especially the golden ratio and √2 are used, and one can find themselves when drawing tessellations that rounding up/down causes problems. See the following link: http://www.jesterdesigns.co.uk/designs

Notwithstanding your comments I do hope that you found the video both interesting and educational
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Jamesnkr » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:06 am

Oh yes I did, as mentioned up-thread, but perhaps I should have repeated it.

I often stick odd-shaped things (for sale) into standard-sized mounts 12x10; 10x8 etc. Might take some of the guesswork out of it. Certainly interesting to learn how galleries use their standard frames.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:51 pm

Jamesnkr wrote:So something between 1.4 and 1.7 then.


Interesting! I'm thinking about if this will help when fitting customers artworks into my stock of ready made frames. I'll probably have to experiment a little and see what happens. Currently I just do what I think looks best, no particular mathematical formula's, or anything like that so far.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Steve N » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:12 pm

Ah so it's good to make a custom frame job look like it's been framed in a standard size frame :giggle: :giggle:
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:09 pm

Steve N wrote:Ah so it's good to make a custom frame job look like it's been framed in a standard size frame :giggle: :giggle:


No, but I get people wanting things mounted to fit a frame of the wrong size and the wrong proportions.

It's never easy making everything fit properly. I give a discount for those willing to use up my left over mountboard scraps. I recognise some of these frames as old frames that customers don't want back, after having an item re-framed and I give these frames to the local charity shops. Up-cycling is a popular thing around here and some people are framing stuff to sell on various internet sites. One of these sites is Etsy, but there are others too.

Many of these are non-standard sizes, so they can't get an off the shelf mount from the discount shops. I can't say that I make a fortune out of cutting a mount, or two every now and then, but it's easy money and some of these customers keep coming back, for more mounts. We have one lady, who is a well known artist and specialises in framing her work in old frames, mostly old Victorian and Edwardian. Over the years we've cut lots of mounts for her.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby prospero » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:06 am

I cut my teeth doing 'shoe horn' mounting. A local antique dealer used to bring me armfuls of old frames that he had
bought at sales together with a stack of old loose pictures. Mainly Illustrated London News pages but all sorts of
old stuff. It was a case of "I want that one in there, etc....."

Learned quite a lot from that customer's work. Not only mounting but ancient frame techniques.

Although looking back it was mostly a big PITA. :lol:
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Steve N » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:03 am

What I meant was, having the top border different from the Bottom border, which in turn both are different from the side borders, now that looks like you have as prospero said 'shoe horn' into a frame you already had, even if it's made for the artwork using the said formulas, customers paying for a custom made framing which looks like it came off the shelf
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby span2iels » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:11 am

I use the 45%/55% for the top and bottom borders rather a lot when a customer wants a mount to fit a particular sized frame bought from IKEA or another retailer and find it works very time. I then change them double what I would normally charge for that size of mount - they should have come to me in the first place!
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Jamesnkr » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:42 am

Steve N wrote:customers paying for a custom made framing which looks like it came off the shelf


Isn't the whole point of this video that it is nothing about custom-made frames but instead is about how to shoe-horn a picture into an off-the-shelf frame?

Ever gone to an art gallery? They have standard-sized frames that they use from one exhibition to the next and so works on paper are mounted in standard-sized bookmounts, and OP's method tells you how best to do this.
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Re: You Tube video - Border Dimensions

Postby Not your average framer » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm

Fitting items into old frames, or even "off the shelf" frames for many us is still part of our bread and butter and probably is quite helpful for newbies as well.
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