Mouldings defects/damage

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Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:35 am

I get my mouldings from probably the two biggest suppliers in the UK & I am getting increasingly frustrated by the quantity of mouldings that either have manufacturing defect or have been damaged in transit.
Both suppliers say that any problems needs to be reported in a certain time after delivery & I have contacted both well outside of this time limit & they have been more than helpful & refunded the cost but that only applies to large sections of mouldings.
We specialise in large panoramic framed prints & it is very rare that I am able to get two 1m cuts (let alone longer) out of a 3m length & quite often I can't even get one after I've cut out the problem areas. The suppliers say that surely you can use the smaller sections for smaller frames but we don't really do too many small frames. It's not only the loss in meterage but the amount of time it takes to check every length before cutting, the bits that I miss before assembling the frame & having to re-cut it & the time dealing with the suppliers.
I suppose my question is, what defects/damage do others find acceptable when making a frame & what sort of percentage loss do you expect to get with mouldings?
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Ed209 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 am

I wonder if you bought a unopened box if you use a certain moulding all the time if this would be better as they probably get damaged in the suppliers warehouse and during transit.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby prospero » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:23 am

It's a problem when you make frames with at least one very long rail. The amount of moulding offcuts you get can
be quite considerable, even on perfect lengths. You have to cost the job slightly differently to take account of this.


On one regular job I do I can only get a long and a short from one stick. It leaves me with a piece about an inch short
of a short rail. While these too-short bits may be perfectly usable, in practice I very rarely have jobs to use them on.
And that is assuming that it's all perfect. These are hand-finished frames so I can make good most defects. If I was doing
the same thing on finished moulding it would get though reams of the stuff. :?
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:06 pm

For the more popular mouldings I do order box quantities but that in itself is a double edged sword as the box has the plastic straps around the outside that the couriers use as grab handles. The straps then cut into the box & ultimately the mouldings which can result in a small dent up to the whole length being trashed.
Also do you then unwrap everything & check it over for both damage & defects.
I use one moulding that has recently had a lot of cracks where the surface is delaminating from the wood & thought it might be the environment it was stored in so made a large cupboard with thermostatically controlled heaters but made no difference.
I've stopped using certain profiles because I was getting up to 60% wastage.
If you have regular jobs for certain size frames then I could allow for that in the price but all our frames are bespoke, 1 offs.
Am I being too fussy or is it that the quality of the mouldings has dropped?
Many years ago I worked for a framing company & it was very rare that there was a problem with the mouldings.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby maguirei » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:45 pm

I think that the amount of damaged moulding we receive has gone up over the years. Are you able to use a supplier with their own van delivery service - this tends to cut down the chances of damage in transit? I would also recommend using the chop service that suppliers offer - it is very rare you get damage in transit and the chop kit should be checked before sending out (so no moulding defects).
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Framie » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm

I've given up banging my head against the wall, and it's getting worse and worse.

I've been thinking about a whole new business strategy but looks like going back to making my own mouldings and finishing them myself is the only option, pricey, time-consuming and I don't have space but I can't continue with so much waste.

Un-opened boxes have reduced the damage a lot but still not good enough and I can't buy boxes of everything.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:04 pm

The chop service isn't an option as we are an online business & people expect delivery in 4-5 days or they are on the phone asking when it's going to be delivered.
Being online we are in a very competitive market & the cost of the chop service is just too high even when you take into account the waste.
I'm glad it's not only me. Maybe we need to go back to the people in charge of the suppliers & tell them that this is getting to be an unsustainable problem & they either need to correct the problems which would be my ideal solution or lower the prices drastically.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Steve N » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:24 pm

One of the major problems is that nearly all the suppliers who don't have their own vans for delivery use the same carrier TUFFNEllS, and that is the problem, they carry anything, so you could have an engine on top of your moulding pack, oil drums on to of your mountcard packs. Two weeks ago had the whole order, moulding and mountcard wet through , so wet that the cardboard around the moulding was falling off, sent the whole lot back and had a complete new order sent'
The drivers don't load the trucks , the warehouse staff do, they don't know the route, so instead of 'last off - first on' you get the drivers walking over everything, moving parcels, trying to find your order :head: :head:
When I first started framing , nearly 30 years ago, we never had this level of damage , I don't know what the answer is ......
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:11 pm

We're in SW Wales so Tufnells hand it over to a local courier but his van is normally loaded to the gunnels & like you say he climbs over everything to get to packages. Quite often the mouldings will turn up with half the packaging ripped off or ripped to shreds but this is only half the problem. The other half is getting the moulding manufacturers to significantly up their quality control.
Not that long ago I had to open 4 maybe 5 wraps to find a piece that I was able to use because of manufacturing faults & I went from thinking I had plenty in stock to only just being able to make the one order.
Still all the offcuts are great for starting the fire.
Was thinking about rebranding the offcuts as "Posh Kindling" :Slap:
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Not your average framer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:24 am

I don't know how you are going to beat this, but maybe your competitors are facing the same problem, so at least it might be something of a level playing field. As far as your wastage is concerned, everything has a value and maybe there's some mileage in making up some ready made frames using this moulding and selling them on the internet.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Keith Hewitt » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:32 am

Why don't any of the moulding distributors add a response to this and the many other topics about faulty mouldings :?:

They must be as fed up as the framers with the amount of time and replacements + credit notes they have to deal with.

It would be interesting to hear their side of this continuing saga
I have visited framers in 83 countries - no two are the same.

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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 am

I agree in that we will never fully beat it but I think it's agreed that there is certainly room for quite a bit of improvement.
If I think of the amount of waste that I have & multiply that by all the framers in the UK alone, that is a heck of a lot & from an environmental point of view I hate to think what the impact is.
Any suppliers want to come in & comment on this problem?
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Steve N » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:21 am

This is nothing to do with defects / damage but come under quality
the same length of moulding , but different depths over the length
IMG_20180309_101026.jpg
IMG_20180309_101026.jpg (192.81 KiB) Viewed 4960 times


over 5mm different, the size of the frame is 116cm so get two out of one length of moulding so the whole length is wasted
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby DEEPJOY » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:06 pm

Hi All

I have raised my concerns in a previous post, but I am still massively p****d off :head: with the whole moulding quality issue. It seems that most framers accept it and get on with it. Some framers chose to predominately hand finish frames, so they can sand out or fill lumps and bumps before the finishing coatings.

Don't get me wrong, if you are prepared to unwrap every stick, inspect and advise the supplier of the problems, they will replace albeit as long as it is within the time slot to report.

I do also, have sympathy with the supplies when it comes to choice of courier company. Mentioned in a previous post was the name of a courier company as an example to what was being used by our suppliers. This company was historically used by a major supplier, but has now been dropped for an alternative. I am sorry to say this alternative is no better. The drivers have to face up to me when I throw a tantrum when the items are damaged, but it is sad to say, he is let down by the night shift back at base throwing, yes throwing the goods into the lorries. I have witnessed this in a former life, when I change courier companies 6 or 7 times.

I now inspect everything straight away and report as needed. I am still questioning what is more costly to me, the time I lose by checking, or the cost in scrap moulding by not checking?

I have been in other industries long than I have been in framing, other industries would not and do not put up with it. But is that why we are drawn to framing so we can have that oh well attitude?

Smoke a joint, play some classical or folk music, become a Buddhist, have happy thoughts, but above all don't stress man about your moulding. Remember the wooden moulding was a tree once man. :rock:

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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:35 pm

I don't see why we should have to put up with it.
If enough people are p.....d off about the problem & complain to the suppliers then they will do something about it.
Getting complacent is not the answer for the suppliers because if enough people shout & they don't respond then someone else will step in to meet the needs.
Your right in that the wooden moulding was once a tree that was cut down, sawn up, transports a mill, cut up into smaller bits, transported to somewhere else probably several times before ending up up the moulding company, cut again, moulded, coated, painted & finished, quite often badly before being shipped around the world to local suppliers who then ship it out to you & me by which time about 30% is unusable.
The moulding companies probably think they are doing really well shipping all this great quality product so maybe it's time they leaned a few hard truths.
I remember once having it out with a sales person about the quality of one moulding in particular that I have since stopped using & asked if anyone else has complained & they said "well quite frankly we don't really get complaints".
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Steve N » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 pm

Most of the members on this forum are 'one man bands' or husband and wife teams, on our own we will not get listened to and are not feared as say some of the larger framing outfits or contract framers, we can stop using a supplier and will most probably not even be noticed . So we all need to start complaining more and asking for credits for any damage, I'm going to send that picture in the other post to the rep and get a credit for the whole length, once I have pressed submit this post :clap: :clap:
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:32 pm

We are in the same situation size wise but if the suppliers start to get a lot of complaints from us then they will have to start addressing the problems. Ultimately I've had a complaint from a client about the surface finish of a frame that I sent out (still don't know how I missed it) so I'm going to complain to the supplier who supplied me with faulty goods & they should in turn complain to the manufacturer who supplied them with faulty goods but this won't happen if we all sit back & say "s..t happens" & move on to the next fault.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby Framie » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:11 pm

I've complained over and over and put over my views as to the many problems but I'm made to feel like it's only me that's having problems.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby shogunswb » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:49 pm

I had the same feeling. Like I said earlier one of the sales team told me that they don’t get complaints.
I think to get the complaints through to the right people we need to complain directly to the directors by finding their email address & see if they reply or if they pass it down.
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Re: Mouldings defects/damage

Postby kuduframes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 pm

I'm relatively low volume but on average have one moulding order per week on Lion and a bit less frequent on Arqadia.
Both suppliers wrap quite differently-

Lion first use bubble wrap and tape followed by corrugated cardboard and binding straps up to as many as 20 over a 3 metre long package, sometimes pulled as tight as possible and sometimes damaging moulding as a result, sometimes a bit too loose and half the cardboard pulled off in handling. Pain in the bum to unwrap. Delivery is by DX freight.

Arqadia simply wrap the moulding in a minimal amount of corrugated cardboard and wrap with tape, no banding straps at my request and lower levels of damage as a result. Real quick and easy to unwrap. Delivery is by Tuffnells.

Incidence of transit damage is minimal and driver will normally point it out as he unloads.
Sure, I also have problems with some deliveries, whether its quality or transit damage but they are minimal and either way both suppliers are very efficient in sorting out, either issuing a credit or an overnight replacement of the damaged item.

If these issue are really so great then what is wrong with naming the suppliers involved, especially if they are not responding positively to individual complaints.
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