D.I.T.H.

Discuss Picture Framing topics.
Everybody welcome.
User avatar
Steve N
Posts: 2424
Joined: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Bath, in the wild wild west
Organisation: Frontier Picture Frames
Interests: Walking our retired Greyhond,art, falling asleep on sofa in front of the telly
Location: Bath, Somerset
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Steve N » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 9:21 am

I look at it this way, as I'm not working for NASA, so it's not 'Rocket Science', :) I rely on my gut feeling and many years of experience as a framer and(many years ago) an engineer

If it feels wrong - don't do it :shake:

if it looks wrong - don't do it :shake:

if it looks cheapskate - don't do it :shake:
Steve CEO GCF (020)
"Just because you seen it on the internet, does not make it true or right" -Abraham Lincoln
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/

User avatar
prospero
Posts: 10449
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by prospero » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 2:32 pm

The thing is, you know how well d-rings perform because they have been a standard method for years. They are a definite
improvement on the old screw eyes/rings. The DITH method may appear sound, but who knows? It strikes me that there is a
stresspoint where the wire bends around the wood. So in a week/year/decade it'might fail. Or it might last centuries....
What I'm saying is, it's not a method that has passed the test of time. :roll:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About

User avatar
JohnMcafee
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sun 10 Oct, 2010 10:58 am
Location: Belfast
Organisation: Scenes
Interests: Picture Framing
Putting the world to rights
Location: Belfast
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by JohnMcafee » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 4:20 pm

Hi Jerome,
Yep, screw thread is 10mm, and wire was pushed to the bottom of the pilot hole before the screw was inserted.
In addition, I calculate that, in my test, the strain on the wire at each screw is 29.4 pounds force. A tad above the manufacturers stated breaking strain. However, my estimate of total failure at more than twice this load, may have been overoptimistic. :?


Calculations
Wire slopes from the vertical at 43deg approximately (measured on school protractor).
Strain on wire = (half the downward force)/COS(deviation from vertical)
"A little learning is a dangerous thing"

(Also known as John, the current forum administrator)

JFeig
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu 23 Sep, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Organisation: minoxy, LLC
Interests: non-fiction knowledge
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by JFeig » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 9:40 pm

Thanks for the info, John.
I always try to remember that I am writing to not only for the original poster; but, all of the followers of the thread.

Now if we could all fix the world. :rock:
Jerome Feig CPF®
http://www.minoxy.com

Jim Miller
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 12:20 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio USA
Organisation: James Miller
Interests: Framing objects, Calligraphy, Educating/mentoring framers, technical writing/framing articles & books

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Jim Miller » Fri 01 Feb, 2019 11:49 pm

Don't you Brits still use cord instead of wire?
:Slap:

Comments here are similar to the Grumble comments thirteen years ago.

I was an early tester of the D.I.T.H. method in 2006, and I can assure you that it works very well. The last of the photos in that old Grumble thread were mine, showing how the stainless steel wire is wrapped around the screw under a flat washer. There is no stress on the smashed wire in the hole, because the pressure of the flat washer presses the wire wraps into the wood. Those pictures were of the soft-wood frames I assembled for testing, which were hanging in my shop with 10-pound weights for several years, and they never showed signs of weakening. Some are still on the walls of my home, and still perfectly intact after 13 years. In fact, I have never seen a properly-installed D.I.T.H. wire failure in real-world practice.

For the record, I would not use aluminum wire for hanging any frame, and especially not for the D.I.T.H. method.

Out of curiosity and for my own information, in 2006 I tested several types of wire attachments to the point of failure. The D.I.T.H. method proved to be stronger than screw-eyes (pulled out of the wood due to leveraged side-stress) and most D-rings (ring came loose from steel band & failed, or pulled out of the wood from side-stress), and stronger than some frame profiles (miters failed due to wire pulling to inside). The D.I.T.H. method usually failed when the wood split to the inside, and sometimes when the wire broke in the middle, at the wall connection, and the screwed connections remained intact. Don't believe it? Before you condemn the D.I.T.H. method you should give it a fair test. Or not - I have no dog in the fight.

The most striking result of my testing was that hanging by wire with a single wall hook is incredibly stressful on the frame's side rails and miter joints, regardless of how it is connected to the frame moulding. So, I switched to WallBuddies, Fletcher Wireless, Hangman, and a few other two-point hanging systems long ago. Until I sold my shop in 2015, when customers insisted on a wire, I often used the D.I.T.H. method. I also provided two wall hooks for a 60-degree angled wire, as recommended by the 1995 F.A.C.T.S. standards, which greatly reduces the stress of hanging by wire.

poliopete
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon 04 Apr, 2016 8:13 am
Location: The Wash
Organisation: Annie Lou Fine Framing
Interests: Caring for my wife, Picture Framing and Natural History

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by poliopete » Sun 03 Feb, 2019 9:06 am

Jim, thank you for your articulate and well reasoned post.

"Don't you Brits use cord instead of wire?"

Unfortunately, cord has not reached our rural neck of the woods yet :( so I use that hairy baling twine that local farmers find so many uses for :D If it's strong enough to support a dilapidated five bar gate and, on occasion, support the farmers trousers, then it's good enough for me. Best of all it's free, because it's discarded around here with the same gay abandon as the posties elastic bands. :giggle:

There is talk of a replacing the hairy baling twine with some more modern orange plastic stuff :roll: Anyway, I must not dismiss it out of hand - I'm determined to move with the times :rock:

Peter.

User avatar
Steve N
Posts: 2424
Joined: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Bath, in the wild wild west
Organisation: Frontier Picture Frames
Interests: Walking our retired Greyhond,art, falling asleep on sofa in front of the telly
Location: Bath, Somerset
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Steve N » Sun 03 Feb, 2019 10:33 am

Sorry I don't care how many tests you have done, it still looks cheap, nasty and amateurish,
Steve CEO GCF (020)
"Just because you seen it on the internet, does not make it true or right" -Abraham Lincoln
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/

User avatar
prospero
Posts: 10449
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by prospero » Sun 03 Feb, 2019 7:33 pm

Steel screw + Brass wire = disaster waiting to happen.

We've all seen brass wire hung on a steel nail that has snapped. It's a chemical reaction. You might be able to tow a car with it
when it's new but who knows what is happening in the hole over a long period. :shock: A plated D-ring will fare better, plus it doesn't
'dig in' like a screw. The load is spread as well. Use plastic-coated wire even better.

Jus' sayin'. :roll:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About

cleaver
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue 01 Jan, 2019 9:42 pm
Location: Surrey
Organisation: Satriale's Pork Store
Interests: .

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by cleaver » Mon 04 Feb, 2019 1:23 pm

I wonder what crushing the wire with a screw twisting round and round does to its strength?

Aside from that, if I were a customer I might thing it was pretty sloppy (the sort of thing I could do badly myself).

As someone said on another thread, customers very quickly turn over the job to see what it looks like at the back....what sort of impression does this fixing method give (though there is a pic on the posts above where it's been done pretty neatly).

One nugget that has always stuck within my 3 brain cells is" The back of a finished framed job can and should look as pleasing to the eye as the front". Wrapping the wire around a lonely screw does not sit well with that philosophy, for my 2 cents.

Ultimately, I believe customers come to pros to get a job they couldn't do themselves....and to give their cherished items the 5-star treatment they're paying for. Even if this were as strong as traditional fixing methods, it fails on the customer perception element, for me.
We're all cofficionados now.

Jim Miller
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 12:20 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio USA
Organisation: James Miller
Interests: Framing objects, Calligraphy, Educating/mentoring framers, technical writing/framing articles & books

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Jim Miller » Mon 04 Feb, 2019 7:17 pm

Dan Smith wrote:...Even if this were as strong as traditional fixing methods, it fails on the customer perception element, for me.
Yes, and for the past 13 years, D.I.T.H. has failed on the framer perception element, as well.

That said, D.I.T.H. wiring can be done neatly, and the strength has proven to be a non-issue.

Prospero: Does anyone use brass wire? Not me - When using a wire is unavoidable, I use stainless steel exclusively. Both brass and aluminum would be prone to fatigue from bending, in addition to the matter of chemical reactivity.

User avatar
prospero
Posts: 10449
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by prospero » Tue 05 Feb, 2019 11:54 am

Yes, what is termed 'brass' wire is really plated steel. But I've still seen it fail when hung on a steel nail.

Plastic-coated stainless steel is what I use exclusively. But I would not be happy with a hanging where it was simply wedged into
a hole with a screw. Wrapping it around a screw with a washer would be marginally better, but when it comes to it that is more
trouble than using a D-Ring.

This is a classic example of re-inventing the wheel. :P
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About

User avatar
Steve N
Posts: 2424
Joined: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Bath, in the wild wild west
Organisation: Frontier Picture Frames
Interests: Walking our retired Greyhond,art, falling asleep on sofa in front of the telly
Location: Bath, Somerset
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Steve N » Tue 05 Feb, 2019 12:03 pm

prospero wrote
"This is a classic example of re-inventing the wheel. :P"



Or, 'Just because you can, doesn't mean you should' :giggle:
Steve CEO GCF (020)
"Just because you seen it on the internet, does not make it true or right" -Abraham Lincoln
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/

poliopete
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon 04 Apr, 2016 8:13 am
Location: The Wash
Organisation: Annie Lou Fine Framing
Interests: Caring for my wife, Picture Framing and Natural History

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by poliopete » Wed 06 Feb, 2019 7:29 am

If this fixing method "fails on the customer's perception element" and on the "framer perception element" then where does it succeed? and what's the point. :?

Jim Miller
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 12:20 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio USA
Organisation: James Miller
Interests: Framing objects, Calligraphy, Educating/mentoring framers, technical writing/framing articles & books

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by Jim Miller » Wed 06 Feb, 2019 2:41 pm

poliopete wrote:If this fixing method "fails on the customer's perception element" and on the "framer perception element" then where does it succeed? and what's the point. :?
It succeeds in reality, for whatever that's worth.

cleaver
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue 01 Jan, 2019 9:42 pm
Location: Surrey
Organisation: Satriale's Pork Store
Interests: .

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by cleaver » Wed 06 Feb, 2019 3:02 pm

D.I.T.H. for framing is one thing, I just hope it doesn't catch on for funerals. :shock:
We're all cofficionados now.

User avatar
prospero
Posts: 10449
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by prospero » Wed 06 Feb, 2019 6:43 pm

You're not screwing me down. :cry:
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About

User avatar
John Ranes II, CPF, GCF
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue 24 Feb, 2004 5:36 pm
Location: Home of Harry Houdini, Edna Ferber...
Organisation: The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
Interests: Philately, Darts, Beer Making, Photography, Golf
Location: Appleton, Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF » Sun 10 Feb, 2019 8:21 pm

poliopete wrote:If this fixing method "fails on the customer's perception element" and on the "framer perception element" then where does it succeed? and what's the point. :?
Totally agreed! When we have customers who question what we do as professional picture framers, why would we opt for a technique that simply looks "Mickey Mouse"?

Most conscience framers on this side of the Pond, gave up on Screw-eyes and galvanized (aka nasty oxidized, blackened) wire many years ago and opt for stronger and quality D-Ring hangers combined with Stainless Steel wire or coated Stainless Steel wire. They also opt for Wallbuddies, Fletcher-No Wire hangers, Hook-Ups and Hangman French Cleats when the size and scope of the job dictates an examination of the hardware alternatives available.

Perception is important... Many customers perceive that Big Box Stores are cheaper... An many (most) times they are NOT!

John
John Ranes II, CPF, GCF
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
430 E Northland Ave
Appleton, WI 54911-2127 USA

Member: FATG & PPFA
The Frame Workshop
John Ranes Picture Framer Blog

User avatar
John Ranes II, CPF, GCF
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue 24 Feb, 2004 5:36 pm
Location: Home of Harry Houdini, Edna Ferber...
Organisation: The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
Interests: Philately, Darts, Beer Making, Photography, Golf
Location: Appleton, Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: D.I.T.H.

Post by John Ranes II, CPF, GCF » Sun 10 Feb, 2019 8:28 pm

poliopete wrote:Jerome, do you not read the Grumble, it's a thread that's bean been discussed at length on there :o ...
Peter.
Hi Peter,

Honestly, Jerome, like myself probably doesn't visit The Grumble much these days....

I can honestly say that I think I have visited it twice in the past year or so. Primarly as most Framer-to-Framer dialogue has gone over to the private groups on FaceBook. FramersOnly, Professional Picture Framers and Underpinner are three of the larger groups on FB. Personally I like the old forum format like this one and the Grumble where threads could be pulled up on searches more easily.

Regards,

John
John Ranes II, CPF, GCF
The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc.
430 E Northland Ave
Appleton, WI 54911-2127 USA

Member: FATG & PPFA
The Frame Workshop
John Ranes Picture Framer Blog

Post Reply