Method to produce moulding profiles

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Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 am

Hello!

Last week I came up with a method to bring some variation in my mouldings. The idea is to use a flat base, and add a profile to that with putty and a plastic profiled scraper, like shown in the image. The nice thing about this is one can easily produce a slightly different profile by cutting out a new scraper. Don't know if this will work out, just a test. But I thought I'd just share it for feedback.

I did a couple of tests using acrylic putty, thick plaster and 2 component wood filler. The plaster is tricky, as it sets quickly. I tried adding some vinegar, but then the consistency seems to change, and detail from the scraper profile is lost. The polyester wood filler has the same problem: as the scraper moves over the material, the material is kind of pulled away (the material pulls on itself, if that is the correct wording), so sharp corners in the profile appear rounded in the material. The acrylic putty works perfectly, its only too elastic to put a proper finish on. So still looking for a good material to do this. Havent tried 'compo' yet, because I need to find a place to get hide glue here.

So yes, hoping for some good input !

Jos
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Loft

Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby prospero » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:38 am

As you have found out, not as easy as it appears. :roll: The material has to be thick enough to hold it's shape and
thin enough not to 'drag'. On the whole I think it's impractical. Much better to mill the profile from wood using a
router table. You can create a lot of shapes with not many bits.

I've seen vids of people doing coving on wall/ceiling corners using this technique. They actually do it in situ up a scaffolding.
Not sure of the plaster mix they use, but I have a feeling it would be too fragile for frames.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby Not your average framer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:28 pm

That's a very time consuming way of creating a a profile on a plain moulding. I've done similar things myself in the past, I would not say it was wasted experience because other ideas came out of it, so don't be discouraged as you will learn a lot from trying stuff like this.

You can add some Cascemite powered wood glue into the mix to produce something that will set much harder. There's a picture in the following link that show you what I mean. I hope this will be hepful.

https://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3882&hilit=hand+finish
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby vintage frames » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:00 pm

If you want to create profiles like that you'd be best to speak to your local "Modeling and plaster casting supplies". They could advise on the best sort of modelling compound that will suit the work you're doing. Compo will be useless for that as it only takes up a form by impression. If you did want to make your own, then a good wood finishing supplier should have all the ingredients.
Good luck with it all though, as we all understand the frustration of being limited to the few off the shelf profiles in wood.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby Not your average framer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:53 pm

In time you may move on to other ways of fabricating the profiles that you require and you will find that there are many different methods employed by different framers, I don't want to influence you too much, as I hope that you will find you own way of doing things in the way that is most natural to you and also that reflects you own individuality.

I think that one of the most attractive things about hand finished frames is that each framer has some aspects to how he does things that are largely unique to that framer. So do not be afraid to be different to others and don't be afraid to offer items that nobody else is offering. We live in an era of low quality mass produced mediocrity and there's no shortage of customers looking for something of better quality.

So you can be the supplier of those better quality items and develop your own niche in the market. Developing your ideas, how to do things and what to offer to your customers will take some time and a lot of thinking things through, but if you like the idea of doing this it may be the way to go.

Some time ago, Prosperro posted his idea for cuttiing strips from off the shelf mouldings and assembling them to create other moulding profiles. It took me some time, but I started doing the same. The ideas come from my own creativity and thinking, you could consider doing something along the same lines. I would suggest that if you plan to do something similar, that you develop your own ideas as individual creativity is that which will mark you out as different and attract customers looking for something special.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:38 pm

Feew yes its quite a difficult problem

@prospero: I looked for the 'in situ' architectual plaster moulding, they do that in a similar
way. Quite fascinating, but laborious, the scraper is run several times, as plaster
is added, until the moulding is built up completely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9bU-TfG7QY&t=322s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDrlbWhC7J0&t=2s

@not your average framer: I ordered the cascemite glue. Why do you recommend this particular
glue and not eg acrylic resin or something?
Yes I do glue together ready made mouldings/strips of wood. It works pretty well, but I wanted to
find a way to add a profile here and there. I also tried milling using my router mounted under a
board. Works but that has its own difficulties... (dust among others)

Hmm this method using a scraper seems so simple and elegant. We only need to find the
right material. In the tests I did I saw a lot of shrinking and cracking (chalk + acrylic resin, clay)
Maybe chalk and epoxy would work. I ordered an epoxy based putty for making models. Will
try that next.

Also I did a test using das clay. That stuff doesnt seem to shrink much. Wonder how that works:
it is water based, so the water has to go somewhere. Or does it become porous when dryng?
Das clay also can't be scraped smooth as it contains paper fibers or something. Can only be
pressed smooth. So I made a wooden wheel that has a profile, that seems to work ! (see image)

Anyway, thnx for the encouragement. I will keep on experimenting a bit....


Jos
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby Not your average framer » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:06 pm

Cascemite is not a replacement for anything, is just sets a lot harder. Stay with what ever medium you prefer, but add some Cascemite into the mix to make it set much harder.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:18 pm

Aha... ok thnx, will try...
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby vintage frames » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:20 pm

Now that's a better idea - using a makeshift wheel. With that you can also use compo which is way much cheaper than any of the artificial compounds you're experimenting with.
If you're really nice, I'll tell you how to make your own casting wheel to make running pattern ornaments!
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:18 pm

:) all ears !
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby vintage frames » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:24 pm

Many years ago I had to produce a large and continuous supply of a handfinished frame for the American market. It contained a compo onrnament which to have cast from individual mould pressings would have been too time consuming and slow.
So we devised a makeshift wheel-casting method to provide a continuous output of compo ornament, rather like that used by moulding manufacturers.It wasn't as accurate as the traditional press moulds, but the results were perfectly acceptable for the frames chosen.
To make the wheels we used a pack of fine surface Miliput, This is a popular repair/modeling two part compound. The mixed Miliput is first rolled out into a long sausage and then a small wooden wheel, about 4" dia, is rolled over it, picking up the compound as it goes until the wheel is now wrapped in compound. Then the wheel is spooled back and forward over a non-stick surface until the compound forms an even tyre like surface around the circumference of the wheel. A sharp knife removed any excess around the edges.
Now the wheel is carefully placed onto the ornament to be copied. This was an antique frame where the decoration was sprayed with some release agent. The wheel was then slowly run over the ornament, picking up it's impression as it turned. When the wheel had fully turned, it was put aside to let the Miliput set fully.
Next was to make up a large quantity of compo and this was poured into new empty sealant cartridges. To extrude the compo, each cartridge was heated in a microwave and then placed in a compressed air driven sealant gun ( quite simple and inexpensive ).
So now The moulding lengths were placed in a wooden cradle with guide rails so as to track the wheel as it traveled down it's length. The wheel had by then been mounted into a small hand tool.
Creating the compo ornament was now a two man operation. One person to run an even bead of hot compo and the other to run the wheel over the soft bead and press out the ornament.
And so it went on until the market said - that was nice, now what next?
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Thu May 02, 2019 4:46 pm

Hello !

I wanted to post a short follow up, just to share the results. In the end (as some predicted) I kind of gave up on the idea and chose to try a few compound mouldings instead, made from hardware store strips of wood. This should quench my thirst for moulding variation for now (see attatchments)..

Jos
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby Justintime » Thu May 02, 2019 5:43 pm

They look great!!
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby vintage frames » Thu May 02, 2019 6:53 pm

Brilliant job. Did you create the outer and inner profiles yourself or are they stock mouldings?
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm

Thnx ! The outer and inner profiles are simple stock profiles from the hardware store. Cost only a few euros for 3 meters.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby poliopete » Thu May 02, 2019 8:33 pm

You have made a great job of joining standard hardwood profiles to create those mouldings :clap: :clap:

Unless others know different, there is a much larger range of small profiles available in those superstore DIY sheds on the Continent than say the Masons range here.

I would be interested in what glue and clamping methods you use and did you run some of those profiles through a table saw?

Peter.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby Not your average framer » Thu May 02, 2019 9:09 pm

Wow Jos,

Those last photos look great and I think that you're do a lot of things right. That's beautiful workmanship!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby prospero » Fri May 03, 2019 11:19 am

Excellent Job. :D

It's surprising what profiles you can create using a relatively small range of shapes and a large amount of imagination.
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby josvanr » Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Thnx!!

Peter: I tried using pva glue and clamping, but that turned out to be very difficult: the strips move too much when you dont clamp them, and when you clamp them, you can't clean off the excess glue under the clamp. (As some strips are so narrow, it is difficult to glue without squeeze-out.) One could also temporarily use nails, but I dont do that anymore after an incident with a guillotine miter trimmer.

So now I use contact glue ('bison kit') instead. This allows one to attatch the strip at the right position piece by piece. When necessary I use a wooden stop to position the strip at the desired constant overshoot. Not too sure how long this glue will hold up though, so when the frame is ready, I shoot in a couple of very thin nails (needles?).. I'd prefer to use wood glue.. but how? If you know a trick to do this, please let me know!

Jos
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Re: Method to produce moulding profiles

Postby vintage frames » Mon May 06, 2019 2:47 pm

What I do is make each length about 50mm overlong and that way I can nail the elements together at each end so as to use wood-glue. The secret is to use long, 30mm, moulding pins and leave about 5mm still showing. When the glue has set use a claw hammer or good pliers to pull out the pins.
I use speed clamps to clamp the moulding when necessary but have even found good quality masking tape wrapped tightly around the moulding bundle, in several places, will give enough clamping force to allow the glue to do it's job.
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