New framers and secondhand equipment.

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Not your average framer
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New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Not your average framer »

Judging be various posts and adverts, there are various new people coming into the business and buying secondhand equipment, which can lead to experiencing problems. I'm not knocking buyers, or sellers here. All lot of new framers, run into problems that are fairly straight forward to fix, for more experienced framers. If you are a new framer and just getting set up. There is always the possibility of getting a framing engineer, to service and set up everything before you open, just to make sure that everything is going to run smoothly.

Opening for the fist time is often a little bit scarey and hitting the ground with both feet running is even more important than every in these difficult times that we are going throw at this time. I hope all you new framers are doing well.
Mark Lacey

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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Keith Hewitt »

May I chip in here ?
Preferably before you start buying any equipment get some training :yes:
Then the chances of buying the wrong equipment, stuff off EBay with parts missing ( there was such a post yesterday) will be greatly reduced
Also any trainer will save your hours of wasted experimentation (aka frustration) trying to get neat windows, good joints etc

I hope someone who tried to teach themselves, and discovered how difficult it can be, :head: will make a post and tell us of their experiences.

A trainer will also tell you where you can buy all the consumables. Its easy when you know, but how difficult is it when you start with a blank sheet.

Ask yourself would you start as a dentist, doctor, physiotherapist, pilot, or even driving a car without any proper training

Its not just 4 bits of wood , a mount and a piece of glass as any newbie will quickly learn. :giggle:
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Steve N »

Another post from Keith that I agree with him on :sweating: :giggle:
I agree with everthing he has said, plus if you get some training before buying equipment, you might find out that you are no good at framing :sweating: or you are not cut out for it :doh: :itwasntme: , so you have not wasted your money on equipment you are not going to use, you can just walk away :wounded:
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Jag62 »

I agree that with the machinery it is important to buy well and then get it set up right. I hope I've achieved this with my recent purchases (Morso from Ebay, Ultimat from Facebook & Underpinner, Excalibur & Mouldings from this forum). I bought each of them after much research on this forum & have spent time on each of them to get everything squared up & true & all seem to be performing well - although on occasions I've not been getting a clean break on the bottom 5cm of glass with the Excalibur (adjusting tension seems to be improving it). It's vital that we don't assume the machines are going to just work out of the box (whether new or 2nd hand).

The small tools & consumables are a challenge but again using this forum I've worked out most of what I need, and will fill in the gaps & upgrade as necessary as I proceed.

With regards to the training this has been tricky in the current climate given classes have been cancelled and attendees who've missed out are first in the queue for the next courses whenever they may be.

Thus I am someone who is trying to teach myself (until course available). I have a number of projects to frame, each of them quite different. I kicked things off by making a few very small wooden frames (to minimise waste of materials) but then was suddenly plunged into the deep end to frame an old photo as a birthday present for someone. I must admit I did cock up the frame width initially but was able to separate it, recut & reassemble.To my delight the corner joints were perfect (imo) and I produced my first cut mat with no overcuts & was very pleased with the results (as was the recipient).

So I agree that training is advisable/essential, but I would also advise spending plenty of time familiarising with all your machinery getting to be comfortable using it & know the foibles of each to minimise user error . This will no doubt result in failures ( e.g. my first attempts at underpinning resulted in some slight corner misalignment & some wedges not fully seated) but you know what they say about practice !

Next for me, a football shirt to frame & a summer ball mask - not sure which to tackle first. And of course trying to build my website.

Happy framing all & have a great weekend !

Neil
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Keith Hewitt »

Steve N wrote: Fri 03 Jul, 2020 12:46 pm plus if you get some training before buying equipment, you might find out that you are no good at framing :sweating: or you are not cut out for it :doh: :itwasntme: , so you have not wasted your money on equipment you are not going to use, you can just walk away :wounded:

A post from Steve that I totally agree with :sweating: :giggle:

I hadn't thought of that, but will remember it :clap:
Keith Hewitt
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Not your average framer
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Not your average framer »

In an idea world the training would come first, but given the current situation, how is that going to happen? However, what I do see is a number of brave individuals, who have got the guts to go for it in very difficult times and so far some of them seem to be getting it together and I am glad to see them starting to get there. I don't think that these people are putting their money into this, just on a whim.

This looks to me like serious committment and I hope that they will do well.
Mark Lacey

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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Jag62 »

On behalf of all us new starters, thanks Mark, and others, for your helpful & supportive advice.

Regards,

Neil
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by girlfromkent »

Hi all

I'd love to do some more training, whether it be formal training days or more ad hoc, apprentice type work, mentorships, learning from experienced framers.

I expect I fall into the above description of a newbie with second hand equipment struggling a bit but I happened to start up just before the pandemic hit so all I can do at the moment is teach myself as I go along.

Also you don't know what you don't know until you get asked to frame it!

If anyone knows of any training opportunities at all within sensible reach of Kent (happy to travel an hour or so) please let me know.

Also recommendations for framing engineers in my area in case I can't fix the problems myself.

Thanks
Megan
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Justintime »

Hey Megan,
Training, you have Lyn Hall at Fringe Arts in Surrey and Jan at Framers Equipment in Northampton (his brother Peter is an framing technician/engineer.)
Repairs, you have Jamie at TGS Repairs in Essex.
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Not your average framer
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Not your average framer »

What sort of training do you need, is it more general training, or something more specialised? It's probably quite helpful to know know what you need in order to see who can provide you with the right training near by. It might not be a normal training provider, bot maybe just another framer. Unfortunately finding training providers during the lock down, might be quite difficult, so perhaps we have to figure out other options.

These are difficult times and maybe your framing business, will become much more important as the present difficulties develop, so that anything which prepares you be competent and confident, may well stand you in a stead as time goes on. Being a competent and well equiped framer, is a good fit with your printmaking activities, as well as being a good stand alone activity, but it's self.

Any extra money, which you can earn during the meantime, which you can set aside to help set up your business and also pay the bills, if you find your self needing to depend on your business a lot more at some point in the future, having a little bit put buy to see you through the ramping up phase for the business, will be extremely helpful at such a time and is well worth bearing in mind during the short to medium term ahead.

I wish you the very best success, as things progress,
Mark.
Mark Lacey

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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by girlfromkent »

Hi Justin

Thanks, I've been in touch with Lyn but unfortunately she's not offering anything until at least September, which is completely understandable.

Also found Peter and have some shiny reconditioned Morso blades from him waiting for me to fit. So, getting there...
Justintime wrote: Wed 08 Jul, 2020 9:39 am Hey Megan,
Training, you have Lyn Hall at Fringe Arts in Surrey and Jan at Framers Equipment in Northampton (his brother Peter is an framing technician/engineer.)
Repairs, you have Jamie at TGS Repairs in Essex.
Justin
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by girlfromkent »

Not your average framer wrote: Wed 08 Jul, 2020 11:50 am What sort of training do you need, is it more general training, or something more specialised? It's probably quite helpful to know know what you need in order to see who can provide you with the right training near by. It might not be a normal training provider, bot maybe just another framer. Unfortunately finding training providers during the lock down, might be quite difficult, so perhaps we have to figure out other options.

These are difficult times and maybe your framing business, will become much more important as the present difficulties develop, so that anything which prepares you be competent and confident, may well stand you in a stead as time goes on. Being a competent and well equiped framer, is a good fit with your printmaking activities, as well as being a good stand alone activity, but it's self.

Any extra money, which you can earn during the meantime, which you can set aside to help set up your business and also pay the bills, if you find your self needing to depend on your business a lot more at some point in the future, having a little bit put buy to see you through the ramping up phase for the business, will be extremely helpful at such a time and is well worth bearing in mind during the short to medium term ahead.

I wish you the very best success, as things progress,
Mark.
Thanks Mark.

I think it's just training and experience generally. It would be great to be able to gain experience in a supported situation.

I've had some training, know the basics, but then have had a series of things brought in that required skills and processes I'd not done before.

Which in a way, is great, because I'm very able to learn through doing. But it is daunting. It would be great to have done all the things a few times before going out on my own, but circumstances just haven't worked out like that.

I'll be the first at the door when formal training reopens, but it would be interesting to know from you experienced framers, how did you train?
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Not your average framer »

I was on a 6 months training placement, which had been organised by the employment service, through the job centre. The framing and gallery company taught me well and I bought most of my equipment and stock from another framers that were closing down. We had a lot of miracles along the way! Life was not easy, but my wife and I are good at living on next to nothing. Also, I've had to learm how to make something saleable from all kinds of bits and peices. I never used to be a wheeler and dealer, but I learnt some of that along the way too! I used to buy damaged, but otherwise interesting items from an auctions in Exeter, take them home a repair them, then sell them in the same auctions in perfect condition and we used to pay all our household bills and manage to live off of the money we got for things that sold in the auctions.

It was also with money that largely came from the auctions and a little bit of wheeling and dealing, that I bought some of my original framing equipment. It may sound like I was good at what I was doing in those days, but I was making a lot of it up as I went along. I spend a lot of time in action sale rooms, just learning how to spot quality antiques and what quality finishes really looked like and then I spent lots of time learning how to copy the finishes, or the genuine distressing on older quality furniture, to be able to repair damaged items to look acceptable to the most expert of buyers. There's not a lot of money to be made out of "Run of the mill" odds and ends. It's the stuff, that looks different and has that classic look that people will spend the money for! My shop is based in a small rural Devon town and this is where the stuff which sells in the big cities won't sell.

I needs to be the classic stuff and country style, slightly rustic look. Most people over do the rustic and distressed look. The secret is to know how to make things to look old, slightly distressed in all the right places and to look rustic enough to look real, but not so much as to look contrived. The older look goes down really well around here! In fact, there are times when I have to smile, when I see something that I made, which probably came from a house clearance, but now is in the window of an antique dealers. It definitely has not been easy, but you learn a lot along the way. I am not 67 years old and not that far always for being 68 and I am realising that sooner, or later I'll be past doing things as a business much longer, but it's been fun while it lasted and was still paying the bills.
Mark Lacey

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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Justintime »

I did an initial basic training day with a local trainer, really just to see if it was something I could get my teeth into.
I then did a further basic framing day with Jan at Framers Equipment and later a box framing day with him. Both worthwhile.
I met Jo Palmer from the Fine Art Trade Guild at a trade show in my first year of business, who sowed the Fine Art Trade Guild seed in my head.
I ploughed on for another two years with books, this forum and the Framers Only group on Facebook.
Year three I was encouraged to apply for the Larson Juhl scholarship, which I won. This gave me two days free training/exam preparation with Lyn Hall, paid for me to take the exam, a free study guide and paid for some table top workshops at FATG events.
A prerequisite was to become a member of the Fine Art Trade Guild, the cost of which had put me off for a few years.
Apart from raising my business profile, setting me apart from my local competition, upping my confidence and skills, one of the best things for me is having access to the Framers Helpline. Every day of the week there is an advanced framer available to talk through difficult jobs/new techniques, we talk, whatts app drawings, whatever it takes to get a job done.
I couldn't put a price on the support, encouragement and knowledge sharing that I have received to not only take on the difficult jobs but to do them to the highest standards.
I gave myself every excuse not to join, but ultimately its been the best decision I've made for my business.
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Jag62 »

This is such useful stuff. Many thanks !

Neil
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by girlfromkent »

Yes, helpful, thank you. I'll join the Guild soon.

Any recommendations for books?

I've got a few but would be interested to see which ones people go back to. What's your framing bible?
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Justintime »

Conservation Framing and framing and presenting textile art by Annabelle Rushton.
The Complete Guide to Shadowboxes and Framing Objects by James Miller.
The Fine Art Trade Guild Study Guide.
Mats Mounts and Reversible Mounting by Russ Wood.
The Library of Professional Picture Framing series.
The Mounting and Laminating Handbook by Chris A Paschke.
Guidelines for Great Frame Design by Greg Perkins (he is now retired but is very active on some of the Facebook groups mentioned above)
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by girlfromkent »

Fantastic, thanks
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by jaybee173 »

Thanks for the list - I've added links to where these books can be bought - some are from America so have high postal charges but if you look carefully at both ebay and amazon they usually will come up cheaper at some point.

Also links to free training courses on youtube for all levels and some interesting stuff from Lion on their Youtube Channel - hope it helps somebody and I will also post as a new topic so more people can see.

Conservation Framing by Annabelle Rushton - None Available

Framing and presenting textile art by Annabelle Rushton. https://ebay.to/3irTpLm or Amazon https://amzn.to/31GXFjl

The Complete Guide to Shadowboxes and Framing Objects by James Miller. Amazon https://amzn.to/3ae6Vzm

The Fine Art Trade Guild Study Guide. Direct from the Guild
[/url]
Mats Mounts and Reversible Mounting by Russ Wood. None Available

The Library of Professional Picture Framing series.
Matt cutting and Decoration - Ebay https://ebay.to/3gNRO2a
Mounting Methods VC Kistler - Ebay https://ebay.to/3kArk6A
Framing Photography AR Lamb - Ebay https://ebay.to/2PFUGlx
Needlework Framing VC Kistler - Ebay https://ebay.to/3fQQOsG
Mat Cutting and Decoration - Ebay https://ebay.to/3kxYkw1

The Mounting and Laminating Handbook by Chris A Paschke. Ebay https://ebay.to/2F5CsYG Amazon https://amzn.to/3iy0N8e

Guidelines for Great Frame Design by Greg Perkins Ebay https://ebay.to/3gHHhp7 Amazon https://amzn.to/3ipONoU


The Complete Photo Guide to Framing and Displaying Artwork: 500 Full-Color How-to Photos by Vivian Kistler - Ebay https://ebay.to/30NphEh

PICTURE FRAMING as a Business by J Edwin Warkatin - Ebay https://ebay.to/33N9l6Q Amazon https://amzn.to/2ChJEQB


There are also many courses and guides available for free on youtube - the link is here https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ing+course

Also some interesting bits from Lion on their Youtube Channel here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqoLIt ... 5Bt4xEXkg
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Re: New framers and secondhand equipment.

Post by Tudor Rose »

Just for additional information - there are a number of books available from the Guild bookstore, including Conservation Framing by Annabelle Rushton which doesn't have a link in the above list.

https://www.fineart.co.uk/shop/Default. ... page_num=1
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