Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Get help and framing advice from the framing community
FraminLost
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun 28 Feb, 2021 8:20 pm
Location: Newcastle
Organisation: Lockdown Project
Interests: I make my own prints, have invested in a Morso that looks like ti survived WWI and I'm keen to learn new things

Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by FraminLost »

... Ive recently invested in an older model Morso and an underpinner and managed to make my first frame and low and behold it's actually square! But it's just a random square.

I now need to make 100s of frames all EXACTLY the same 10inch square size ... what's the best way to do this?

I don't really want to use a chop service as would like to be able to do this myself 'on the fly'

The Morso doesn't have any stop guides or rulers or anything like that - it only has a right arm and thats it - there's nothin there for me to 'butt up' against when doing the chopping

Ive got plenty bits of wood kicking about and wondered if I basically need to make a jig to attach to the Morso arm or if there is a much more sophisticated way of doing this??

Any jig examples out there or tips greatly appreciated

Or do I need to buy some sort of measuring kit for the Morso ......... thats possibly gonna cost ore than the Morso :-(
User avatar
GeoSpectrum
Posts: 2151
Joined: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Lincolnshire
Organisation: Ashcraft Framing
Interests: Family, x-country skiing, wine, art, Jazz
Location: Gainsborough, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by GeoSpectrum »

If it’s just 10 inch
Lengths then a simple clamp
Would do it once you have got the distance right. Good luck cutting that many times. I hope
You knees and hips are up to it! I upgraded to a
Saw for this very reason...

You do have rebate supports....?
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
Bespoke Easels and Self-assembly tray frames
http://www.ashcraftframing.co.uk
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

O.K., slow down a bit first. You need to do a bit of costing out how this project is going to work. There's a few hard truths to consider! Not everyone will necessarily understand how much profit a project needs to produce for you to make any money at all. When I started up, it was a very difficult time and a very steep learning curve I did a lot of the wrong things and wasted a lot of money. I am sure that plenty of other forum members will be able to say the same. You are already expecting, whatever you are going to use as are production stop system for your Morso, to cost you more than the Morso has already cost you. Why is this? You are already talking about making only one size of frame and that is 10" x 10". For the time being you only need to be thinking about cutting one length for a four sides of your frames.

This can be something made out of a couple of bits of wood which is just clamped in place on to the right hand fence leaving a clear space below where the moulding can pass under the piece of wood clamped on the the fence. Save your money! you've got plenty of time to do something about getting a proper stop and measurement system later. It's time to enable you to be able to make these frames, without spending money on things which can probably wait until things have progressed a bit further down the road. What are you planning to use for moulding to make these frames? This is the first stage of working what it is going to cost you to make these frames and there will be wastage, which is materials, you have paid money for and is the left over bits, which are too short to be usable for this project.

You will also pay for packing and carriage, plus VAT as well. Some how you will need to pay for these non profit making costs out of you final sale price, before you can even hope to make a profit. I was told by Wessex Pictures when I first started that I would need to mark up everything I bought by at least 4 times to even stand a chance of not going bust. I don't know what any other forum member would say about this, I cannot survive at all on anything anywhere near this. I think that it would be a real challenge to just break even with such a small mark up. So here comes the first lesson, "I don't know anyone who is able to survive on less than an eight times overall mark up". Business is facing the ultimate reality of how much it cost vs what you can can sell something for. You are going to need to do a bit of research and come up with a plan which works for you.

How many bits of acrylic glazing and backing boards do you realistically need to buy while you are starting up. This is probably the first thing you need to decide right now. It might not be as much as you were first thinking. Be careful at first. Buying it is easy, selling it is something you need to learn about and this is where experience come in to the story. Success is not a overnight thing, it takes time. Do the necessary calculations and have a plan which is going to work in realistic situations, pick all the brains which you can on this forum and best wishes for a successful future.

Mark.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
FraminLost
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun 28 Feb, 2021 8:20 pm
Location: Newcastle
Organisation: Lockdown Project
Interests: I make my own prints, have invested in a Morso that looks like ti survived WWI and I'm keen to learn new things

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by FraminLost »

Thanks for the comments

I don't sell picture frames - I sell framed prints, the money is in the design time we put into the prints not in the raw materials as it were and we used to buy the frames from IKEA but don't want to do that anymore for a host of reasons and instead I am looking to employ or upskill people in house to do it - even if it costs the same as the IKEA ones or a bit more Id rather a) employ someone and give them an opportunity and b) say that my business makes it's own picture frames as I believe my buyers would appreciate that USP

I'd be looking at 200-500 a month probably, and don't expect this to be an easy job at first at least

Wonder if this changes any of the replies
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Justintime »

Doesn't sound like a problem, as Alan said, cut a small piece as a "stop". Pencil mark 10" on your moulding, cut, check, lock your blades down, put your cut piece on the right hand side flush tight to the blade, clamp your stop in place on the right hand arm. Make sure your blades are freshly sharpened.
Always cut your glazing 2-3mm smaller. Make sure your rebate supports are set right, so there is no movement in the moulding when cutting.
Max I have done in one go was 40, that was plenty :lol: Good luck!
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Justintime »

Oh and if you don't have any scales at all on the right hand side, make sure that your front fences are squared i.e. giving you a 45 degree cut!
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
FraminLost
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun 28 Feb, 2021 8:20 pm
Location: Newcastle
Organisation: Lockdown Project
Interests: I make my own prints, have invested in a Morso that looks like ti survived WWI and I'm keen to learn new things

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by FraminLost »

Thanks ... we'll maybe keep it simple and aim for 15 a day then?!! Each, from 2 people at least ... and I'll get the cod-liver oil in now :D
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

Crumbs! This is no small operation. Do you have any idea how many man hours are going to be needed to produce 200 to 500 frames per month? It's going to be quite a lot and probably will need a bit of logistical support to keep it running smoothly. It's not easy to predict the volume of framing moulding waste, but it's likely to need to think about the disposal issues. I expect that you will need to have more that one moulding supplier to ensure continuity of supply as it is not uncommon for moulding suppliers to run out of stock and then have a delay before being able to restock.

You will need a good level of wedges for your under pinner in stock on an ongoing basis and the same will apply the the glue for joining the picture frames. Then there's glass, or plastic glazing and backing boards as well. Also what about quality control. Each finished frame will need to be inspected to ensure that quality standards are being maintained. Have you ever done anything like this before? If not, it will take time to get everything up to scratch and running smoothly. Do you have much money to finance this operation, or are you aiming to run on a shoe string budget and start small and build up?

I think that you will need a plan for how to get everything up and running. Also your team may need to be involved in the plan from the outset. It's going to be a big plan. Somebody will probably need to go on a framing course and then teach everybody on you team as well. There is going to be a fairly extensive costing exercise before you can put the plan in to action as well and it won't be cheap. Who is going to be available as part of the team to deal with breakdowns and maintaining all the equipment? You will need someone, who is reasonably competent and reliable.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Justintime
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat 26 Sep, 2015 8:48 am
Location: West Wales
Organisation: George The Framer LLP
Interests: Gardening, design, electronic music, good food and beverages.
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Justintime »

I'd be getting some quotes from a few contract framers, who are setup for this kind of volume.
No mention of mounts. Probably a good time to mention that unless these are low value pieces theyshould not be put straight against the glass...
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

I am wondering if this is intended as an employment creation venture for those living in the house and if so subing the frame production out to a contract framer might not be what is intended at all.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

I am thinking that most of the framers on this forum would struggle to make up to 500 frames per month on an ongoing basis, using a really well equiped set up. Unfortunately, it sounds like from what you are saying that you may not have a particularly idea set up at all. You say that you do not have the usual measuring system and production stop at all. To me, this sounds like you are setting your self a very demanding requirement of producing up to 500 frames a week without even having the normal measuring system on your Morso that everyone else on this forum takes for granted. Quite honestly , I am wondering if you would be better off looking for a second hand Morso, complete with the right hand measuring extension and the left hand support extension and put you older Morso up for sale. How old is your under pinner and what make and model is it? If you are joining up to 500 frames per month on an ongoing basis with a manual under pinner. That may not be good for you knees, or your hips in the long run and if you are not already using a pneumatic under pinner, maybe you should be considering it.

There's plenty of second hand equipment about at worthwhile prices and maybe you need to be thinking about what makes best sense for you. I would suggest that you think about what this level of work means. It's difficult enough with all the right equipment, but it gets even more difficult, when you have make do with a more limited set up. 500 frames means 8 cuts per frame or the Morso and each cut is going to be made bit by bit, so perhaps for smaller cuts per full cut might be a total of 4 cuts per cut. Therefore 500 frames might be a total of (500 x 8 x 4) =16,000 cuts. Then we need to join the corners say two wedges per corner for 4 corners per frame. Therefore 500 frames is probably a total of (500 x 4 x2) = 4,000 underpinning operations. This is a total of (16,000 + 4,000) = 20,000 pedal operations every month, each and every months. It's a good way of wearing out knee and hip joints in a relatively short time scale and needs thinking about. I've been framing for around about 20 years at a much lower level than that and both knees and both hips are well and truely ruined.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
FraminLost
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun 28 Feb, 2021 8:20 pm
Location: Newcastle
Organisation: Lockdown Project
Interests: I make my own prints, have invested in a Morso that looks like ti survived WWI and I'm keen to learn new things

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by FraminLost »

Not your average framer wrote: Tue 02 Mar, 2021 2:11 pm I am wondering if this is intended as an employment creation venture for those living in the house and if so subing the frame production out to a contract framer might not be what is intended at all.
This isn't for a tiny business running out of a house ... I have 20 people working for me in a warehouse

I thought this might be a good place for tips and advice but you have taken a real dislike to me before we've even started.

Maybe this isn't the place for us to look for any support, which is a bit of a shame that it seems I'm essentially being told its too hard and I should take my business back to IKEA
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

Sorry I was trying to be helpful. You did not mention anything about your operation, so this was not clear. Please don't take offence, when none was intended.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
GeoSpectrum
Posts: 2151
Joined: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Lincolnshire
Organisation: Ashcraft Framing
Interests: Family, x-country skiing, wine, art, Jazz
Location: Gainsborough, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by GeoSpectrum »

If you’re planning on making that many frames with 20 people in a warehouse why on earth do you have a beaten up old morso and not the kit you really need to take on such a project?

I would take the advice from the forum seriously. There are some very experienced people on here, and picture framing is not as easy as it first seems.
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
Bespoke Easels and Self-assembly tray frames
http://www.ashcraftframing.co.uk
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

At last the voice of reason. Perhaps we need to start again! Does this project have an equipment budget? If so do you know what this is going to be. Everyone on this forum wants to help you and save you money at the same time. Take another look at peoples answers, we are all trying to help!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
vintage frames
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue 12 Jun, 2012 6:05 pm
Location: West Wales
Organisation: https://www.dermotmcardle.co.uk/
Interests: Making picture frames
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by vintage frames »

Buying an old Morso and some sort of underpinner can well turn out to be a good initial idea. By making a few frames from scratch, FraminLost can discover all the ins and outs of making a useable pictureframe.

Morso's and basic underpinners are really only suitable for low volume bespoke work, however. For any sort of scaled up quantity, you need to use production machinery. That is a production double mitre saw where the operator can feed in lengths of moulding whilst the saw chops it up in quick succession. Then you need a powerful production underpinner which is capable of operating without pause to keep the assembly line going.

And for all that you need a copious supply of compressed air, not only for the machines but also to supply the tackers needed to assemble the glass and boards inside the frames. A Hydrovane is a must.

You can buy much of this machinery second hand and for the glass and boards, have them pre-cut to size.
Affordable Gilding Course for Professional Framers-https://www.dermotmcardle.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/dermotmcardle/
User avatar
StevenG
Posts: 1147
Joined: Thu 31 Jan, 2013 8:01 am
Location: Tyrone, N.Ireland
Organisation: Featurepiece Frames
Interests: Movies, always trying to get things better, Wasting money on things I don't need, reading stuff on here, eating sandwiches & being thankful for the small things
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by StevenG »

I would still consider ourselves in the bespoke bracket but recently (6-8 months) we've been doing some basic framing for an online guy that does printing - nothing too serious - I think the the max size on the site is around 20x16. It started off small but at the moment we're supplying about 400 frames per month - I have a morso and a cs200 underpinner. It's totally doable - it's only myself & Liz here and it's only a few hours per day to produce the work. The thing is though - it's started to take it's wear 'n' tear on my aging joints. So, for that primary reason I'm thinking about a saw - I can't really afford something new but I'm on the lookout for a 2nd 969 & I think that's the route I'm looking to go as it'll also offer more in regard to the moulding options I can supply to my customers. But, if you're going to use the Morso I'd be looking at one with better rulers/stops & maybe a left arm to support full lengths. :)

All the best
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by Not your average framer »

That sounds sensible. It may be worth having a decent Morso, or equialent as a back up for the double saw it the longer term, some do this, others don't. It's personal preference thing!

Are you going to base all of you production around one moulding? If so it might be helpful to find a moulding which is available from more than one supplier. Agin you will need to see some samples, to make sure that they are exactly the same. Many mouldings look the same in the catalogue picture, but you still need to see the samples side bu side to be sure!

You might consider getting a moulding that looks like the moulding on the Ikea frames that you are already using, as your existing customers are clearly happy with that and this will prevent any issues with your product looking any different.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
GeoSpectrum
Posts: 2151
Joined: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Lincolnshire
Organisation: Ashcraft Framing
Interests: Family, x-country skiing, wine, art, Jazz
Location: Gainsborough, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Is he reading this thread anymore?
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
Bespoke Easels and Self-assembly tray frames
http://www.ashcraftframing.co.uk
JFeig
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu 23 Sep, 2004 8:31 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Organisation: minoxy, LLC
Interests: non-fiction knowledge
Contact:

Re: Need to make a lot of the same size frame ...

Post by JFeig »

Framinlost,
It is time to take a breath and take a step back to analysis what the project entails.
With a production line process that you are alluding to, there are many costs that have to be taken into consideration. The first is the cost of manufacturing a wood or other material frame from length stock vs your hopes of coming close the "retail" price of an Ikea frame that is made by automated equipment vs high cost people in the UK and raw materials that are purchased by the truckload. Your cost of raw materials, labor (including benefits such a payroll taxes, down time, etc), general overhead etc. will not be able to compete with the price of an Ikea frame.

Jerome Feig CPF®
http://www.minoxy.com
Post Reply