drymounting

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WelshFramer
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Post by WelshFramer »

Steve Goodall wrote:Hi Mike - I thought I'd jumped on the wrong site when I saw "WELSH FARMER" - surely the picture should be of a sheep not a sheepdog!"£$%&*?
Well, I only arrived here by mistake. It was a long time before I realised it wasn't The Farmers Forum.

Maybe we should have thread about Artcare Restore. I know you're not an enthusiast for it but I'm using quite a bit at present and would welcome some reasoned input - I'm sure we could keep the discussion on the legal side of libel.
Mike Cotterell
Neuadd Bwll Framing

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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

Hi Steve
I agree with Mike
I have never used the stuff. yet would be interested in reading 'all about it' please
John GCF
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Steve Goodall
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Post by Steve Goodall »

Hi Merlin & Welsh Framer,

As I said to Roboframer - it might be inappropriate for me to make any public comment directly about Artcare Restore. Think about it - Imagine if Martin Harrold from Lion started giving his opinions in the "Simons" thread. I for one would not be impressed. However if Martin was to state his views on the framing wholesale market in general then I would listen with respect.

Mummy always said "If you can't say anything nice - don't say anything at all"..............

I would be happy to discuss a few general points though...

The pros & cons of foamboard as a substrate
The suitability of foam centred boards for drymounting
The question of why one glue doesn't "do everything"
The thorny issue of reversability & "when to stick" or not
Heat or pressure??? - which type of adhesive coated board makes more sense

I'd particularly like to get together with someone who uses lots of "these kinds" of board like Welsh Framer & maybe jointly come up with a few recommendations or Do's & Don'ts...

What do you think my farming friend - sound like a good idea???

Let me know,
Steve
It's not a secret - I work for Wessex Pictures & I'm here to help!!! you can email me at steveg@wessexpictures.com or call me on 07585 138566
osgood

Post by osgood »

Not having a hot press means I haven't had the opportunity of using Artcare Restore. There are many, many framers who do use it here and in North America and successfuly, I believe!

I gather, Steve, that you have a negative opinion of this product and everyone is entitled to have any opinion of any product that they have used. I believe that framers should always evaluate such a product themselves and not just rely on one or two negative comments.

If framers are only going to base their usage of such a product on opinions, they should canvas opinions from many sources!

I'm assuming that you must be the 'Guru' of hot presses, etc. in UK and many framers will take note of your opinion, without knowing exactly what your objections are. I can just imagine some people reading your negative vibes on the product and saying to themselves "Steve G. doesn't seem to like Artcare Restore, so I'll be buggered if I'll ever use it!"

In the light of the fact that many framers us it successfully, this might be an unfair reaction!

Perhaps it would be to everyones benefit if you were to list the disadvantages of the product that you have found, then others who have used the product could state their opinions on the same aspects.

I'm sure there will also have been some discussion of this product on The Grumble! It seems to be down at the time I am writing this so I can't post any specific links, but will do so later.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

There are some on TFG that use it as a default dry mounting method and I do too.

I don't like dry mounting at all - hot or cold, for me the method either has to be reversible or the artwork replaceable or ephemeral, or ideally all of those.

I would never have owned a dry mount press were it not for artcare restore.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Steve Goodall wrote:As I said to Roboframer - it might be inappropriate for me to make any public comment directly about Artcare Restore.
I don't see why - the stuff is no use without a heat press, vacuum or otherwise - it depends, partly, on your machine and many have had great success with it.

If too many used it as default it would greatly affect sales of your products though - your opinion is never going to be unbiased is it?

There is no way on Earth you are ever going to recommend it - I bet you'd actually love to produce a similar product and so you could if you wanted (and maybe you have?) But there's that artcare/zeolite/microchamber thang isn't there - you nor anyone else can compete with that until the patent expiires.

Not even the FATG plug that bit - don't want to bite the hand that feeds and all that?

Fill your boots!
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Post by Moglet »

Hi Steve,

I'd just like to say that all that I have taken from your posts is that you choose not to comment about Artcare Restore in a public forum; nothing more, nothing less, and I think that your choice should be respected.

I think that you have suggested a very good list of topics for discussion, and I for one would love to learn more. I'm based in the west of Ireland, and I can't drive at the moment; so I can't get to one of your (highly recommended!) training days. I have a vacuum press (alas not a HotPress one,; it was provided my "start-up" bundle and took what I was given... :( ). At the moment it is an expensive but useful workshop gadget: it is certainly not making money for me.

So far, I have tried a number of different materials for both hot and cold drymounting (plain and self-adhesive foamcore, mountboard, Fastmount, Easymount). I've only used clear laminates on 3 items in the last 2½ years. I am interested in using Artcare Restore, but I would like to learn about as many options as possible that I can use with my press, in order to enhance the range of services I can offer to my customers. If I get that right, my press will then become 'profitable.'
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
Image .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

My own experiences with it are mixed - the reversibility isn't the issue - it's the permanence. I'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it with dry mounting.

I've experimented on my own stuff and I've found that no matter what the temperature or the dwell time - cooling under weight etc etc - on different weights of paper too, you can mostly always tease a corner up - once you've done that it always rips off leaving nothing behind.

A pack of twenty five 60x40 boards goes a looooong way and unless I master the stuff I won't be buying any more when that runs out - seems to me that the temps and dwell times are just too critical - or, if not it does not really do what it says on the tin and if improvements have been made and are still being made then I'd like to be able to buy less than 25 sheets at a time - try 5, or 1!!! Until they get it right - for me.

Nielsen don't manufacture a press; they depend on yours and others', so they don't do any demos, all info is therefore theory, which is why I asked for your opinion.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Well here's what a quick search on TFG turns up

http://www.thegrumble.com/search.php?searchid=306112

and below is a quote from one of those threads by a respected conservator - best advice for any dry mounting method in the last sentence.



......... is on the Facts committee for adhesives. He's done some tests re the reversibility of this product with various papers, application methods etc.

He found that when used as per instructions it was reversible. The adhesive shows under UV light, and he found no UV visible traces of the adhesive on the test pieces after removal.

HOWEVER, this says nothing about its long term reversibility. Most pressure sensitive adhesives change in time. Also, Bainbridge doesn't say what exactly is in the adhesive, so predictions can't be made.

To be really sure, the adhesive would need to be analyzed, and artificial aging tests made, as well as long term natural aging tests.

The terms Archival and Museum Quality mean nothing. A prudent approach would be to use it only on easily replacable items with owner's permission
osgood

Post by osgood »

Moglet wrote:I'd just like to say that all that I have taken from your posts is that you choose not to comment about Artcare Restore in a public forum; nothing more, nothing less,
Áine,

I thinks Steve's statement;
"Mummy always said "If you can't say anything nice - don't say anything at all".............."
gives a pretty clear indication that his opinion is negative!

I don't have any problem with him having a negative opinion, but it would be good for us all to know what his objections are.

If Steve doesn't wish to give us more info, thats his decision, but some of us will still be left wondering about the product.
Moglet
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Post by Moglet »

Text-only communication is limited, and a great deal of nuance is lost compared to direct verbal communication. I chose to interpret the comment you quote from Steve's earlier post as a pleasant and slightly humorous way of moving on from a situation that Steve has indicated to readers that he finds professionally awkward (viz the "Martin Harrold/Simons analogy).

Your inference may be right, Ormond. My inference may be right. Both of us may be wrong, and Steve may have meant something completely different by his remark.

In the absence of a clear statement from Steve about the product in question (which, to my mind, he has the right to post or not post as suits him). all that readers can do is infer. Or not, as the case may be.

What one infers from any communication depends on one's own perceptive filters and choices. I cannot read minds, and in the absence of a firm statement from another, I don't think I have a right to put words into another's mouth based on what could be an incorrect interpratation or inference on my part. That is my personal choice.
Ormond wrote:If Steve doesn't wish to give us more info, thats his decision, but some of us will still be left wondering about the product.
Please don't take this as my being rude toward you Ormond (it's most certainly not intended in such a manner), but why not let people make up their own minds? In all candour, your most recent posts on this thread come across to me (and it's only my opinion, mind) as telling people what to make of Steve's comments. Perhaps that was not your intent?
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
Image .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
Moglet
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Post by Moglet »

Roboframer wrote:Well here's what a quick search on TFG turns up
John, I tried the link you posted earlier but it didn't bring up anything on the G. Can you post again, please?
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
Image .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
osgood

Post by osgood »

Áine,

I certainly wasn't 'telling' anyone how to interpret Steve's comment. That was not my intent. My intent was to encourage Steve to express his opinions and also to express my opinion that people should listen to all opinions, but test the product themselves if they have the capacity to do so. I don't have the equipment to test it myself, but am willing to listen to anyone who has used the product!

Every time I have heard the 'can't say anything nice' phrase, in conversation it has meant that the person has not wanted to express their negative opinion.

I am in no way being derogatory towards Steve. I would like to hear what he has to say. He has had a huge amount of experience in a field that I have had none, and I would really be interested in his opinion. It seems that he is a fount of knowledge and will be a great asset here!

I totally agree that people need to make up their own minds and in fact said so in another post above:
"I believe that framers should always evaluate such a product themselves and not just rely on one or two negative comments."
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Moglet wrote: John, I tried the link you posted earlier but it didn't bring up anything on the G. Can you post again, please?
It doesn't work for me now either - sorry.

If you click on the search facility on TFG, go to advanced search, type in 'artcare restore'. select 'search titles only' from the drop down and then the grumble from the list of forums on the right. You'll get about 8 topics on restore.
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