What mount & glass cutters to buy?

[Steven]

After 20 years our Keencut mount cutter is due for replacement. At the same time I thought I would buy a wall mounted glass and board cutter. Could anybody give me advice as to which ones to buy, i.e. the FT 3100 versus the Keencut Excaliber, or the FT F2200 versus the Keencut Ultimat gold. All comments appreciated.

[yankee]

hi i would go for a keecut excalibur after using one now for a whille they are easy to use and maintain.it cuts thick backing board and glass which is very useful well worth the money in my view.

[Roboframer]

Welcome to the forum Steven!


The FT F2200 and the Keencut Ultimat Gold are both good machines - I just wish FT or Keencut would make a machine that has the best of both of them.

The FT has ball bearings - better than the Keencut's nylon ones (IMHO)
The FT has blade magazines - so you can pre set the blade depth for different thicknesses of board - just change magazines - no need to re-set blade depth as you do on the Keencut.

The squaring arm on the FT can be set to zero - or almost. The squaring arm on the keencut can only be set to (from memory - I never use it) to about 2-3" - this means that cutting reverse bevels face down, with no need to finish the cut by hand - is easy on the FT but only possible on the keencut on mat margins of 4"+

The FT uses pegs as production stops - the Keencut a sliding scale with the facility to 'dial out' over/undercuts.

And - I THINK - you can put a board bigger than the bed on the FT - not on the Keencut.

FT is imperial - metric to order - Keencut covers both anyway.

[BaBaZa]

I'd go for the Keencut Ultimat and Excalibur. Well made and easy to use, also great back up from Keencut.

[pepper]

The FT F2200 and the Keencut Ultimat Gold are both good machines - I just wish FT or Keencut would make a machine that has the best of both of them.

The thing is that when you mention ball bearings the assumption is that they are better than plastic guides, of course it does sound better but the fact is that ball bearings used as wheels will grind down any debris in its path and you end up with two tracks of hard impacted grot on the slideway which can sometimes be a problem to remove. When the slideway is clean it sounds and runs OK but when it is dirty it can rumble quite badly and forces the cutting head up, this will add pressure onto the central bearing promoting premature wear. Now the plastic guides used on the Ultimat Gold act like a snow plough and push the debris away and if adjusted correctly will sound and feel smooth with no sideplay ...... and get this Keencut guarantee them for 20 years! Oh, and the other thing is, I cannot see that it is a good idea to run hardened steel bearings on an aluminium track, even if it is anodised the base material is essentially soft, perhaps this is the purist mechanical engineer coming out here!

Now for the Squaring Arm, ask anyone who has had to set up the Fletcher squaring arm and its diagonal bar if they would prefer to have one that is self supporting, clip in/clip out, pre-set square and robust ..... I know what I prefer, even if it does mean an occasional compromise with reverse bevels.

I believe you can add an extension to the base of the Fletcher but I am not sure what benefit it gives, on the Ultimat Gold you can buy an extended margine guide which effectively extends the base out to the left and has the means to slide the margin guide over it so you can cut up to 75cm borders. They can also provide clip on arms if you need removable support for overhanging board.

Regarding the matter of blade cartridges, there are two schools of thought on this matter and I suppose it comes down to accuracy -v- convenience. The fact is that blades are not always the same length, they are made from strip steel passing through ovens, grinders and stampers at a fast rate of knots, so +/- half a millimetre on the length of the blade is not that unusual. So what? Well a Fletcher blade cartridge has its measuring stop at the back of the blade so when you change blades say from a -0.5mm blade to a +0.5mm blade your blade depth goes way out. With the Keencut it's blade stop registers on the front edge of the blade so the length of the blade doesn't matter. With both machines when you change blade depth you have to calibrate your stops for over/undercuts and the Ultimat Gold wins that battle hands down.

Sorry for rambling on but I think it worth airing as for any framer the two key machines are the mountcutter and the mitre cutter, quality is in the cutting!

Pep

[Nigel Nobody]

One thing to check is the action of the clamp. A few years ago I saw a wall cutter who's clamp moved laterally to clamp board/foamboard into place. It was problematic in that the board would move sideways when the clamp was engaged, so that the cut size was not accurate. Can't remember what brand it was and hopefully they have changed that now!
I have only had experience with a Fletcher and am extremely happy with it.

Pep,
The blades I buy for my Fletcher wallcutter are exactly the same size. I've never seen any blades, even for matcutters that were different lengths. Perhaps this inaccuracy of blade lengths is peculiar to your part of the world?

[silvercleave]

Fletcher 2200 is great, came as metric standard now I think, combined with an angle guide and an oval/circle cutter you can cut many many shapes

Ian

[Roboframer]

Pepper - you don't sound very impartial - I pointed out what I saw as pros and cons for both machines but you only point out pros for one and cons for the other.

..... when you mention ball bearings the assumption is that they are better than plastic guides, of course it does sound better but the fact is that ball bearings used as wheels will grind down any debris in its path and you end up with two tracks of hard impacted grot on the slideway which can sometimes be a problem to remove. When the slideway is clean it sounds and runs OK but when it is dirty it can rumble quite badly and forces the cutting head up, this will add pressure onto the central bearing promoting premature wear. Now the plastic guides used on the Ultimat Gold act like a snow plough and push the debris away and if adjusted correctly will sound and feel smooth with no sideplay.

So? Whatever machine you have, keep it clean; cover it overnight; maintain it regularly - but like I said, why doesn't FT or Keencut, come up with a machine that has it all. How about, for example an easily repalced 'snow plough' serving only that purpose, but with the cutting head still running on ball bearings, like most machinery, like my washing machine or a Ferrari?

BUT - if you DO get some grit in those nylon bearings - it will have a far worse effect than on ball bearings, it will only be on one spot of each ball - they roll - but it'll always be on the same spot on the static nylon bearing.

Used to do a lot of cycling (OK - I realise a lot of oil/grease - stuff you wouldn't want near a mountcutter is used) and the last bike I bought that had nylon bearings was a kid's trike! (Good job the kid grew out of it too!)

Also, in my experience, those nylon bearings can get used to, or 'bedded in' to different users if you have staff - one may exert more pressure on the left, one the right, one the back, one the front .... and that can have an effect. Not a problem for a one man band?

My nylon bearing is buggered - have to adjust it daily (must admit I never knew about that 20 year guarantee though - already bought a new cutting bar/head - just can't be arsed to swap the scales/stops over - it's still in its box!)

.... ask anyone who has had to set up the Fletcher squaring arm and its diagonal bar if they would prefer to have one that is self supporting, clip in/clip out, pre-set square and robust ..... I know what I prefer, even if it does mean an occasional compromise with reverse bevels.

That was a very grudging 'pro' for the FT - An 'occasional compromise' may be true for those that don't do a lot of reverse bevels; I do - mainly for mount fillets, which I sell a lot of - probably 70% of my work goes out with one.

It's no problem though - like anything you are used to - I just cut face up - set the stops to prevent overcuts (plus quarter inch start of cut; plus one eighth end of cut) and then finish off by hand. It would be slightly quicker, that's all, cutting face down on the FT.

[Not your average framer]

Having worked in situations where I have used cutters from both suppliers, I would say that the Keencut Ultimat Gold is the better mountcutter from a users point of view, but the Fletcher Terry is the better wall mounted board and glass cutter.

My main reasons for this are the ease of use with the Ultimat and the agro of cleaning those bearings and the the bearing running tracks on the cutting bar. I think that the differences between them are not significant enough to justify changing from one to the other and expecting to gain any worthwhile advantage.

Personally, if I was needing to buy a new mountcutter and money was not a consideration, I would buy the C & H Advantage Pro which is a fantastic mountcutter from and technical design point of view and in usage. One day I would like to have one!

As far as the wall mounted board and glass cutter is concerned, the FT does not require any periodic adjustments of bearings at all, where as the Keencut does need the play in the bearing to be adjusted as usage produces wear in the nylon bearings. Again, I think that the differences between them are not significant enough to justify changing from one to the other and expecting to gain any worthwhile advantage.

Both of my cutters are from Keencut and serve me well. I have no complaints and the after sales back-up is great!

[pepper]

Pepper - you don't sound very impartial - I pointed out what I saw as pros and cons for both machines but you only point out pros for one and cons for the other.

Sorry if it sounded one sided, but if you review your points they are also tilting one way. However, this just shows how passionate this industry can be. I was not trying to rubbish one machine in favour of the other but replying to your point about why there is not a machine that includes all the good points of both the Keencut and Fletcher machines, my personal view is that there is and it is called the Ultimat Gold. Now, I am being one sided again but I cannot artificially change my view to remain PC for the forum. The fact is that they are both well engineered machines but only one of them ticks all my boxes, they are differently designed and those design features will appeal to different people dependant upon their needs and likes/dislikes.

My nylon bearing is buggered - have to adjust it daily (must admit I never knew about that 20 year guarantee though - already bought a new cutting bar/head - just can't be arsed to swap the scales/stops over - it's still in its box!)

If your bearings are buggered why not just change the bearings? It only takes a few minutes, perhaps you may start to like the machine a little more if it is working correctly, in fact I think Keencut will send you a replacement set of guides free of charge under the 20 yr warranty if you ring them.

Lastly, a point regarding the ball bearings, I understand what you are saying about your washing machine etc., but I suppose my point is that at the heart of your washing machine it does not run the hardened edge of a steel bearing on the surface of a soft material like aluminium. Ball bearings are the perfect way of controlling rotational movement but when used for linear motion I feel it has to be done properly. If you go to http://www.hepcomotion.com/en/lopro-alu ... g-14-get-7 you can see how it should be done but they cost a fortune because of the ground steel runners and grooved bearings, I suppose that would increase the price of the cutter way up.

, in my experience, those nylon bearings can get used to, or 'bedded in' to different users if you have staff - one may exert more pressure on the left, one the right, one the back, one the front .... and that can have an effect. Not a problem for a one man band?

I think you may find that if you replace and adjust the guides that the above problem disappears, I have found that if there is play in the head that people tend to grip the head tighter than necessary because they feel they need to add physical rigidity to get a good cut and in doing so will hold the head in different ways with pressures at different points. I have always found time spent on maintenance pays for itself ten fold, by the way if you do adjust the guides do it with the cutting head moving and not stationary it will make a big difference (let me know if you want more info on this)

Anyway Roboframer, I guess there are things we are not going to agree on but that is what forums are for, to get discussion going and varying points of view. Should we start on glass cutters next... what do you think.. or should we leave it alone!! ATB

Pep

[Mark Thornton]

Hi Steven

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the various types of table top mount cutters and wall mounted board cutters let me know as i have been a framing engineer for over 18 years (having worked for Lion / Larson Juhl / Magnolia) and i live in Brighouse, i can always call in and give you some impartial advice.

Regards Mark