Starting up

[greenhorn]

hi all
my first post.
im thinking of setting up a frame making workshop in my back garden and working from home (no high street outlet)
ive been in construction for the last 20 years and im now unemployed. i have been painting oils for the last six months and when i went to frame them and found out how expensive it was , i figured why not do it myself.
one thing led to another and now im interested in doing it as a business.
i have no frame making experience, but i have sourced a number of courses. i have also trawled through this forum which i found very helpful.
one problem i have is im only allowed a 25 sq meter (250 sq feet) workshop in my back garden and might need planning permission to use it as a workshop. Is this too small?
i was offered 3 start up packages from a supplier.
morso F. cassesse cs79 underpinner.. keencut 1200 mountcutter + 750 euro extras ---4325 euro
morso F .cassesse cs88 underpinner.. keencut 1200 mountcutter fletcher 3100 material cutter + 1000 euro extras -- 7320 euro
morso F .CS 89 undrpinner (air operated) keencut 1200 mountcutter fletcher 3100 material cutter bambi BB50D compressor + 1200 euro extras -- 9000 euro.
I was looking at the charnwood M3 underpiner and the charnwood guillotine. any1 recommend or not these? http://charnwood.net/CatList.jsp?cat=6 http://charnwood.net/CatList.jsp?cat=42
Im not looking to get rich from the venture and can keep my unemployment benefit for 2 years ( 100% year 1 , 75% year2)
i have a budget of around 10k including the workshop (around 3k)euros.
Am i mad / delusional / naive or all of the above or is it worth pursuing ?
i have loads of other quistions but the post is getting too large, so ill leave it for now awaiting your responce

[Dermot]

Give me a call on 087 2575059 and I will help you with some pointers.

[prospero]

Hi and Welcome Greenhorn.

If I were you I wouldn't jump in with both feet too quickly. Look for a good secondhand Morso guillotine. And also a good underpinner. The CS88 is an excellent machine, but secondhand ones are a bit thin on the ground, but they can be had. I would avoid a pneumatic machine unless there is a good reason for having one. You don't absolutely need a wall mounted board cutter straight away. They are nice pieces of kit to have, but they are a fair chunk of cash and you might be better off buying a better mountcutter such as the Keencut Ultimat Gold. Other sundries and small tools you can buy as the need arises.

[Tim]

Sounds just like how I got started, although I was my own hobby framer using hobby kit at first, but when I turned 'legal' I got a 10x 12 shed for the actual kit, and am still using it today. It's a bit small though (especially when it's raining, as I need to open the door to cut long lengths of moulding ) so I'm in the process of buying another shed, this time 3.2m x 6.4m. This is still a tad smaller than the one you'll be able to get without planning, so should be adequate. Storage of moulding lengths will be a problem though, unless you get the height (my new one's going to be just under 4m tall, since that's the other planning limit). I'm building a mezzanine floor to store other materials too.

As to kit, I'm happy with a second hand Morso, Keencut Ultimat Gold, and Casesse CS79 Underpinner. My £29 oil filled glass cutter works just as well as an Excalibur 5000, but it'd be nice to have as and when. So would a Valiani, but I need to generate a bit more profit before I can stump up for one of those. I paid around £1800 for the three main pieces, say £700 for the Morso second hand, £600 +VAT for the Keencut Gold new, and £365 for the Casesse.

Hope it gives you some indicators

Have fun

Tim

[stcstc]

i am based in dun laoghaire, if i can be any help etc give me a shout

[emeraldart]

I started up the same way about a year ago and am still finding my feet particularly with regard to machinery. I am currently bidding on a Morso on ebay(anyone else please back off and give me a chance ). A second hand Keencut ultimat just sold for £153 on ebay a few minutes ago. Good second hand machinery will get you going and save quite a lot of initial outlay. Im in Cork. Im not sure where you are but feel free to ring me or call in 087.2646978. I started off working from the shed and now have a small gallery and framing studio. Eventually you will need quite a bit of space for workshop. You will be surprised how may workbenches and storage units you will need. Best of luck with the venture.

[prospero]

Whatever else you buy, get a box of Handywrap.

[pinkybanks]

My whole framing venture is still very much in its infancy but would say that the majority of framers started in a very similar way to yourself. I choose to buy second-hand and luckily dropped on a bargain (Ebay) and collected an entire workshop for around £2k. I operate from my garage, which isn’t ideal but is a starting point for my future aspirations. The whole project is still under the ‘official business radar’ as I am still in gainful employment, but have been pleasantly suprised just how quickly things are taking off.
I’ve discovered that framing is all about word of mouth recommendations, and as long as you offer value for money with a realistic turnaround, you won’t go too far wrong. I have a cautious approach to risk and would only divert what you can comfortably afford to loose before committing too heavily, and if purchasing second-hand equipment you will always be able to recoup the majority of your initial investment.
Most of all believe in your own abilities and don’t sell yourself short. Don’t expect to get rich doing this, but it should provide you with a decent income (cash seems to be king) and a quality of life that I only once dreamt of.
Good luck, just do it.

[Gesso&Bole]

There's a bit of a theme building up here, and I am going to agree with it.

In the present economic circumstances there are loads of good second-hand machines to be had, and most picture framing equipment lasts a very long time.

Grab yourself a second-hand bargain, and keep hold of some of your cash, to cope with the inevitable rainy days . . . . . . .

If I was going to buy anything new, it would be the keencut ultimat, everything else second-hand

250 sq ft isn't bad for a workshop although you can always use more. If you can get enough height to store moulding vertical, this will save a lot of space.

Will you make any money? Keep your costs low, work hard at the quality of your product, and charge enough to make profit, keep at it, and maybe you'll be in a good position to benefit when the recession turns into the next boom!

Good luck, and welcome!

[swanlinnet]

Greetings Green Horn

Hope all's going well.

Six weeks ago I was just where you are now right at the very starting gate ...no knowledge ...no equipment ...never cut a frame in my life

All I can say is just watch for some people who will try subtly to pour cold water on your ideas .... people, that is,
who would have you beleive it's a mountain you are faced with when setting up a workshop.

Sure, there is work to be done and a little study besides. But hey, with
the right help and, most of all encouragement, it's a great journey that you're on.

Most of the people on this forum have helped me beyond words can express. Simple things which used to and still baffle me have been kindly explained.There are some great guys here.

Also, I was under the impression I needed to buy a
Morso brand new until I read Kev's report who is here on this forum. The report was good reading and it saved me a few hundred quid

And with a little bit of effort on my part and the kindness and knowledge of some people here on the forum I have finally got the workshop off the ground.

It's a pity you don't live a bit closer otherwise I would have gladly have invited you to come and see the workshop and get the feel of the Morso and the other equipment. It's a wicked machine

Here's a link to the Morso information'. Honest, it's really very interesting and so helpful and, looking back, it saved me a few hundred quid:-

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/PROFESSIONAL- ... 0001352545

Green Horn, I happened to find a very a good supplie who arranged for me free ...free ...free .... one-to-one, one day picture framing courses ....before I had even spent a penny with them. The courses were one-to-one and helped clarify loads of stuff. I attended two.

This supplier is called Ashworth and Thompson and they do have a outlet in Ireland. I was under no obligation to spend a red-cent with them also. After I had wrote them with an equiry I was amazed that they invited me to their HQ in Nottingham.

Now this might seem trivial but for someone starting out it's invaluable.Yes, Ashworth and Thompson have a HQ in Ireland and I am sure they would be thrilled to hear from you in much the same way most people here will be glad to give you their encouragement.

Good luck mate The hoop you have to jump through is much wider than you might possibly have been led to beleive.

All the best for the future,

Vince

[Not your average framer]

Hi Greenhorn & welcome to the forum,

We all started off as Greenhorns somewhere along the line and most of us "done alright" Building a business is a slow haul, but there's lots to learn along the way.

I would suggest that you start off buying the basics and preferably at the right price as second-hand. Ideally a metric Morso as it's easier to use for work that has to be spot-on accurate.

As for an underpinner, you can always check on the forum before buying any particular make and model. Usually one or more of our forum members will have direct experience of most framing equipment and will be able to advise.

A good mountcutter is absolutely essential. Again there are some good second-hand ones about, but be careful what you get, both in terms of if capabilities and it's condition.

I use a Keencut Ultimat Gold and would recommend one to anyone. The sliding bearing arrangement on the Ultimat Gold is much superior to the original Ultimat, but even the original is still a great cutter.

Other top class cutters include the Fletcher and the C & H Advantage Pro. Don't bother with a really early C & H though as they've had their day and don't bother with any of the hobby type cutters.

As your business develops, there will be plenty of time to pick other equipment second-hand and at the right price.

May I wish you every success in this your new venture.

[SquareFrames]

Hi Greenhorn, firstly let me thank Birdman and Stephen Strahan for their glowing recommendations, it is always good to hear nice words from old students, and Birdamn is correct, he doesnt get any commission, infact if memory serves me correctly he owes me an Indian meal in Portadown, its gotta be his trun. By now you already have spoken to my wife at length and I hope she has kept you right?

I just want to add a few things she may have neglected to mention......We are able to offer the complete package, i.e Training / Machinery Sales / Workshop Build / Machinery set-up & Calibration / Servicing, and we are now offerinng 'onsite' training so that anyone training with us can use their own machinery and get to grips with calibration and basic maintenance, etc. A lot of people have preferred this lately, so I tend to spend at least one week (maybe 2) a month away from my own workshop. This gives both me and the student extra time to ensure that not only are they trained to the 'correct standards' but they get to know the quirks of their own machinery. All our courses are on a 1-2-1 basis, unless you have a business partner, wife, husband, lover, etc. then we will teach 2 at the same time, and also our course are fully accreddited by the Fine Art Trade Guild in London and are taught around a strict syllabus which prepares you for the GCF examination.

Unfortunately (some would differ), I will be out of action for a few weeks from next Monday 17th May, by this time next week I hope to be being wheeled into theater in Musgrave hospital for a 3rd spinal operation, and hopefully being 'pain free' for the first time since 1989, BUT, never fear I hope to commence training schools again around the 28th June after a couple of weeks watching daytime TV and going stir crazy. In the meantime if you have any further questions you wish answered, please contact 'er indorrs' she is only too pleased to help in any way she can.

Good luck with you venture, hope to talk very soon.

Steven