Moulding Chevron Samples

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Roboframer

Moulding Chevron Samples

Post by Roboframer » Fri 07 Jul, 2006 3:14 pm

Image

There are at least two major moulding suppliers represented here, which is great.

So no names, no pack drill!

I have 3 maiin moulding suppliers.

Supplier 'A' will send me velcro-ed corner samples of whatever I want FOC and if it's aluminium will also provide rods and triangular clip-on supports to display them.

Supplier 'B' will give me full sets of chevrons from designs within a certain range for a £50 spend on that design - I have to pay for any chevrons of their other ranges.

Supplier 'C' does not do moulding chevrons, they will send a 12" sample FOC (but I hear they are thinking of reducing that to 4") - 12" does not really give enough for a decent chevron, esp on anyhing of a decent width, and I'm not showing my customers straight samples, make it a 16" sample, just another 4" and I could use that. Asked the rep on his last visit to get me TWO free 12" lengths of each of the mouldings I liked, so I can make chevrons, we'll see what happens. Also gave him a decent order for new stuff I knew I will sell. The order has arrived; no samples yet.

I know it must cost a packet to provide hundreds or even thousands of customers with samples, but, well - see supplier 'A' !!! I can't go buying lengths of EVERYTHING I have on display - I'd need a small warehouse!

I also realise suppliers are not going to give away these sets to just anyone. But what we can't show, we can't sell for them - can we! Should they not be speculating to accumulate?

I also don't want slow moving, higher end stock hanging about, risking damage.

Have also ordered 2 lengths of certain new mouldings, cut my chevron off one, then taken an order for two or three frames and ended up JUST short because I cut that chevron - that's REALLY annoying!

Seems from The Grumble that American framers do not pay for chevrons - Period!!! (Bar closed corner frames and I have just paid £39 for ONE such sample!)

osgood

Moulding Chevrons

Post by osgood » Fri 07 Jul, 2006 8:27 pm

Down here in Oz, we don't pay for samples. If a company wanted me to pay for them, I just wouldn't sell their stuff.
I buy from eight or nine companies and obviously the cost of samples is built into the pricing structure of mouldings.

They all have different styles of samples. Some are large and some are small. Some of the small ones are cut from a 12 inch piece and both ends of each piece is cut at 45 degrees so that a wide moulding has almost nothing left on the inside, which makes it difficult for customers to visualise. Visualisation software is the answer to this problem.

I was lead to understand that a "chevron" is where the ends of each piece of a sample corner were parallel to each other. I was told that where the ends of each piece of a sample corner were at 90 degrees to each other, it isn't called a "chevron".

Roboframer

Re: Moulding Chevrons

Post by Roboframer » Fri 07 Jul, 2006 9:01 pm

Us Brits are too soft maybe - but suppliers 'B' and 'C' definitely lose out to 'A' with me because of the free chevrons. Both on wood and aluminium and they are both big players too!
osgood wrote: I was lead to understand that a "chevron" is where the ends of each piece of a sample corner were parallel to each other. I was told that where the ends of each piece of a sample corner were at 90 degrees to each other, it isn't called a "chevron".
A chevron is a 'V' shaped design, inverted or not and is quicker to type than 'corner sample'

They are either parallel (as sent from supplier) or level (as in you could stand it up) as mitred by morso.

More about chevrons here .....

CHEVRONS

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Post by Not your average framer » Fri 07 Jul, 2006 10:26 pm

It's a difficult question, I think I can say that I know exactly who is supplier "C". They like to be very competitive on price and that must have an effect on how much money they feel able to play with! Following the spring fair I was supplied by them with an excellant range of new samples and have no complaints. However, I have taken to buying the odd length of some mouldings, just to make a sample and perhaps to frame something for the window.

Larger chevrons are very helpful in persuading customers to go for the more expensive mouldings, I think it's a psychological thing that big chervons make the moulding look somehow as though it's worth more. I am currently in the proccess of labelling my samples with plastic laser printable labels, these are almost indistructable and look fantastic. These again add to the response you get from customers.

I don't think any of us should under estimate the importance of chevrons, chevron sizes and methods of display - I've found it has a massive effect on sales figures in general and also the price you can charge for different mouldings. I am currently getting ready to re-organise my little tiny shop to add a massive new samples board and when I do I'm expecting to see an increase in sales!
Cheers,
Mark

osgood

Labels

Post by osgood » Sat 08 Jul, 2006 8:43 am

Not your average framer wrote: I am currently in the proccess of labelling my samples with plastic laser printable labels, these are almost indistructable and look fantastic. These again add to the response you get from customers.
Mark,
Can you please explain this labelling system. My "chevrons" (and I imagine the majority of Aussie framers) aremarked on the back and the customers hardly ever see them.

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Post by Nigel » Sat 08 Jul, 2006 3:38 pm

Here in Spain I have to pay for chevrons, although I think they are reasonably cheap. I have chevrons made by the supplier that are 14cm long and they charge me for the amount of moulding used, e.g. if the moulding is 3 euros per metre I will be charged .28 of 3 euros.
Wish they did supply them for nothing though. The other problem with the supplier I use is they don't do chevrons for mountboard, just an oblong bit of board. If I have any left over I cut my own chevron as it is much easier for the customer to see how the frame will long when it is finished. But as mentioned earlier you then find you just a bit short for doing a job and have to order a complete sheet. Maybe thats why they do it!

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Post by Merlin » Sat 08 Jul, 2006 4:01 pm

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but how many chevrons do you display in or around your 'design counter'

I have some 180 wood chevrons on 3 spinners and about 30 aluminium.
I have cut down from around 300 wood chevrons, as they just stayed there gathering dust and not moving at all.

Even this give too much choice to the customers and causes a lot of 'undecidedness'.

I display about 130 mount chevrons on the counter as well.

Roboframer

Post by Roboframer » Sat 08 Jul, 2006 7:43 pm

I've got around 1,000 wood moulding chevrons and the whole artcare range plus Arqadia's suedettes, then, on a spinner I have around 40 mount slips, fitted onto mounts and 20 odd washlined samples, which I am increasing to 40 or 50 as/when I get time also the artcare bevelled accents.

I keep about 200 aluminium samples on a spinner, and some more in drawers under the counter.


My last lot of moulding chevrons I had to pay for averaged out at £2.33 each.


I don't find a large selection causes confusion, we always seem to narrow it down quite quickly. I do carry too much of my selection in stock though - far too much.

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Re: Labels

Post by Not your average framer » Sat 08 Jul, 2006 10:21 pm

osgood wrote: Mark,
Can you please explain this labelling system. My "chevrons" (and I imagine the majority of Aussie framers) aremarked on the back and the customers hardly ever see them.
Hi Osgood,

Mine are labelled on the back too, but until now I have written moulding numbers, price code letter and other information on my hand finished variations. This is all very well until you want to change something, then it starts to look messy. Not only that, but when I decide something need it's price increased, I don't want the custmers to know, (especially if it shows that I've pushed it up quite a bit).

So plastic laser labels save me having to make a new chevron to get remove out of date information. The plastic labels in question are made by Avery and I got mine (in the U.K.) from Viking Direct, their order number is G21-L6008-25. These are 25.4mm x 10mm and you get 3780 labels for £17.99 + VAT. I've only done a few chevrons so far and was suprised by the good reactions from a few regulars who noticed them. The printing on these labels is very durable and does not easily rub off or smudge.
Cheers,
Mark

markw

Post by markw » Sun 09 Jul, 2006 8:39 am

I sometimes get customers asking me how much does that cost per foot - my answer is always " I dont know" and without looking it up, I dont! In the days before pricing programmes all my chevrons would have been marked with a price and wily customers would see it and try and work out the price in their heads. Now chevrons are marked with their product number and all the prices kept safely locked within the PC - price increase - I am not going to change hundreds of chevrons, i just adjust the pricing or replace the whole price list downloaded from the vendor.

From now on Im going to watch my customers carefully to see if they turn the mouldings over for clues about the price - Im going to worry about the ones who claim to be impressed by my labels.

As for being charged for chevrons - I use 95% chop service and doing so at that level means that you are committing yourself to having almost the whole range from one or two suppliers. In my case I use Ashworth & Thompson for almost all of my orders. When I changed to them some years ago they supplied all my samples free of charge on the basis that I would spend X amount of money with them. This was a big commitment on there side as they supplied several hundred chevrons. I met the X amount and still spend at the same rate - they happily supply new chevrons FOC. (great company - they get ***** rating). I get reps in from many companys who are only to happy to supply chevrons of new mouldings FOC - even if I dont want them.

Always remember that focusing your spending on a few suppliers allows you to negotiate good discounts - spread your spending too thin and you dont spend enough to be taken seriously, and you dont get the volume discounts.

Roboframer

Post by Roboframer » Sun 09 Jul, 2006 10:56 am

markw wrote:
Always remember that focusing your spending on a few suppliers allows you to negotiate good discounts - spread your spending too thin and you dont spend enough to be taken seriously, and you dont get the volume discounts.
Absolutely Mark,

That's why I have 3 main suppliers - I get an across the board discount off all of them. One only gave it to me last week, up until then it was only on quantities of 100' or more, so I am now a happy Hector!

The rep called with some new mouldings - on the backs were 3 prices, the single length (or up to 100') price, the 100' + price and the 'shedload' price. So I said 'Hang on, does this mean ANYONE gets the 20% off 100'?" The rep said 'Er, yes, but only if they ask!!!!!'

So I asked him what I had to do to get it for any quantity - he said he'd ask, tuns out I was already doing it, but if you want a discount you have to ask.

SO -------- ASK !!!!

Once I've taken a deep breath and worked out a way to clear the stupid amount of stock I have, (it could come to a bonfire or 'free to good home' I'm that fed up with it) I'm going to be looking at chop service too, which at present I only ever use for metal. I've never looked hard at Ashworth and Thompson, but will be doing so. Supplier 'C' should worry - not only do they just not do chevrons - they don't offer chop sevice either.

Supplier 'A' is big on chop, suppplier 'B' offers it on just some of their mouldings.

markw

Post by markw » Sun 09 Jul, 2006 6:13 pm

John (Roboframer)
I am sure you know your core sellers - they are worth keeping in stock - Plainwoods - versatile stock - never a problem. Slips - fillets etc - again you keep stock - everything else get in as chop. If your organised you can get a good order in before mid day and have them back next day. Dont go down the route of oversizing the chopped length and trimming - I demand that the chop i get goes together perfectly, and in fact because its cut on a saw the mouldings that can be a problem on the Morso are normally cut very cleanly.

I have a woodshed in my garden thats full of my old stock - I'd had some of it for over 10 years. It burns well - but my wife has to stop me dragging bits out and saying "do you know how much that stuff costs"

If the chop supplier is who I think they are then you should be pleased with the service they offer.

Roboframer

Post by Roboframer » Sun 09 Jul, 2006 9:13 pm

markw wrote: If your organised
'If' is a very big word!

Roboframer

Post by Roboframer » Sun 09 Jul, 2006 11:16 pm

So - moulding suppliers, and I know there are more reading this than are registered. How do you fit in with my suppliers A, B & C?

If you give moulding chevrons FOC - how do you swallow the outlay, or do you care?

If you sell them - how do you feel about those that give them away and win me over?

If you don't even DO them - then how do you feel about those above, and how do you feel about the likes of me that overlook your new lines because all they see is storage space - I ain't got none left! If you don't give me samples they can gather dust in YOUR premises!

C'mon - stand up and be counted.

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Post by DSimons » Mon 10 Jul, 2006 8:45 am

Daniel Simons of D & J Simons here. I just thought I would put our point of view across regarding chevron samples. If a sales rep/sales manager sees a potential increase in business or the request is from a customer who spends a reasonale amount of money with us, it will never be a problem to send moulding chevrons free of charge. A problem may arise when the very small framer, or for a better word for it, hobbyist, asks for lists of chevrons. Then from our point of view there is the cost of the moulding to consider together with the labour cost for the man to cut and join the sample, with the prospect of a very small return in terms of orders. We have introduced a large range of new mouldings recently, and I personally would be over the moon if our customers stuck them on their wall.
Daniel Simons

osgood

Chevrons

Post by osgood » Mon 10 Jul, 2006 9:13 am

Daniel,

As I said before, down here in Australia, mouldings samples are not charged for. I guess there is a lot of competition, which has helped to keep the status quo across the suppliers. Naturally the cost is built into the price we pay for the moulding, which is OK by me.

In my humble opinion, hobbyists should not be able to purchase framing materials of any kind at wholesale.

It seems to me that it really should not be too hard for your reps to determine whether a framer is a hobbyist or a serious business.

If your mouldings samples are being displayed by genuine framing businesses, you at least have a chance of selling them. If any framer is reluctant to pay for your samples, then there is almost no chance that that framer will purchase your mouldings.

I guess the logic of this is obvious, but if you want to sell your mouldings then framers have to have samples, to be able to sell them. You can make it either hard or easy for framers!
If a sales rep/sales manager sees a potential increase in business
In any legitimate framing business there is a potential for an increase in your business.

Why would you not want to make it easy for every genuine framing business to have a good selection of your product on display?

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Post by Trax » Tue 11 Jul, 2006 7:11 am

Florian of Spagl GmbH here. In Germany the discussion about giving away chevrons FOC is vey new. 5 Years ago, no chevron was FOC (the exception proves the rule). Not until wholesalers of cheap and poor quality mouldings started to provide c. FOC, the framers started to ask about it. Nowadays a lot of suppliers (not everyone) give away c. FOC and of course hope that the framers put the c. on their wall. If a framer pays for a sample, he will hang it for sure.

Also providing c. FOC should be in due proportion to the orders of a framer. No framer can really expect to get c. FOC (more than one time), if the sampels are "worth" 300 EURO, and he orders for under 1000 EURO a year.

I think every framer (who is willing to do good business with a supplier) has the possibility to work out a win-win solution together with his supplier. Every supplier would be pleased to provide c. FOC, if he gets back good orders.

When we do export business, we usually do not charge for any samples, otherwise it would be to difficult to get in the market.

An interesting fact is following: The more manufacturers of picture frame mouldings share the market with wholesalers in a country, the less is the probability for the framers to get corner samples always free of charge.

osgood

Chevrons

Post by osgood » Tue 11 Jul, 2006 8:10 am

Trax wrote:if the sampels are "worth" 300 EURO, and he orders for under 1000 EURO a year.
If someone buys less than 1000 EURO a year, I wouldn't be too sure that person has a legitimate framing business. It would be more a hobby than a business in my opinion!

Do you really sell at wholesale prices to someone who only buys 1000 EUROs a year? I hope not!

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Re: Chevrons

Post by Trax » Tue 11 Jul, 2006 10:33 am

Of course we do not sell at wholesale prices to a framer who only buys 1000 EUROs a year. We only sell at wholesale prices to wholesalers (selling to framers) or suppliers who buy big quantities. We usually sell at retail prices to framers (maybe with export discount or quantity discount).

But if a framer does 1.000 Euro with a supplier, it must not be necessarily a hobby framer. Maybe a framer does 1.000 EURO with supplier A and 30.000 EURO with his main suppliers B and C.

Roboframer

Post by Roboframer » Tue 11 Jul, 2006 8:46 pm

DSimons wrote: If a sales rep/sales manager sees a potential increase in business or the request is from a customer who spends a reasonale amount of money with us, it will never be a problem to send moulding chevrons free of charge.
Thank you Daniel for your comments.

I love D&J Simons and have never had a problem with buying stock and making my own chevrons from it. That's just how things were.

But as my stock levels have grown - because I cannot resist a bargain or a discount for quantity - I have looked at suppliers who make it quite clear from the outset that they want my business and are prepared to speculate to accumulate. I like to hold stock - it means I can offer a quick service - I'm talking while-you-wait. But now it's just got silly and there are many framers out there who have much much less space than I and never want to get anywhere NEAR my stock levels.

I've dealt with you for 10 years plus and what you say is news to me! I've never had a problem getting free SAMPLES from you, but they were always STRAIGHT samples - too short for a chevron and only any use as a reference to ME, not any use to offer up to customers' artwork.

When I asked for chevrons from your rep, just last week, he scratched his head, said he would see what he could do - nothing has happened yet.

If and when I get them I am sure I will take orders from them, but I just cannot accommodate the stock.

I hear what you are saying about low volume framers, but 'TRAX' also has a point, some framers may be doing peanuts with you and 20 times more with A.N. Other supplier whose strengths are your weaknesses. It should be pretty obvious who to aim at, VAT registered framers for a kick off - but the reps also get their hands dirty and can tell if framers are busy or not, they can tell at a glance whose chevrons they have most of on their walls - or CAN they? I wonder sometimes!

None of your reps over the years have ever even mentioned chevrons - free or otherwise.

I think in future, when reps call (from any company) I'm just going to say - "Look - I've got no room for any more stock - if I want anything from you it'll be chevrons - and by the way, I don't wanna pay for them"

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